378 Comments on "Fertility and Getting Pregnant versus Infertility and Adoption"

1. Dana | September 10, 2013 at 3:35 pm |

   “I bet that if you would offer 6K to half the mothers who are ‘considering adoption’ or ‘making a loving adoption plan’ it would be enough for them to find a way to parent their wanted child!!!”

   When I had to turn my ex in for B&E and grand larceny, as he was in the Army, they court-martialed him. He got knocked down to E1, and after 6 months they were going to stop his pay. Even an E1 was getting about $700-800 a month. I was initially told that I would be getting that money (I rediscovered this recently when my best friend sent me a packet of letters I’d written her back then) and, if I had, it would have seen me through some pretty serious stuff and I might have been OK keeping my son.

   I *definitely* could have found a use for that $6000 you are talking about here. It could have seen me through getting a job and putting my son in daycare as needed. I could have paid a sitter in the evenings too. In short, we would have had it made, and I wouldn’t be missing him now.

   Anyone who ever does a fundraiser to help them adopt automatically gets on my shit list for life. They usually vote to cut poverty aid benefits, too. I don’t hate easily, but I hate them.

2. Barbara Scott | September 10, 2013 at 4:12 pm |

   You are so eloquint…keep up the fight and maybe one day we will get the message across.

3. jan stewart | September 10, 2013 at 4:14 pm |

   I am with you on this one Claudia……….I really dont give a flying fig that some one is infertile…….or not infertile …..no one has the right to take a poorer woman s child just because they ” want ” …..

4. Joanne | September 10, 2013 at 4:27 pm |

   The grandmother analogy is brilliant. I gave up my son 41 years ago, just reunited this past year. I lost my mother in 1989 when my daughter was 4. I might have paid for a grandmother for them too. But who wants to go into an unknown family. Thanks for your rant.

5. myst1998 | September 10, 2013 at 5:38 pm |

   This has been my beef for years. The fact people who are hurting use their pain to basically hurt others and it is then seen as okay and acceptable to society! That is just so screwed up.

   Mothers who lose or place their children for adoption often get told to move on with their lives; move forward, don’t look back. Why then are those who are unable to have babies not (gently) told to do the same thing? Afterall why are they given more sympathy and empathy by society in general? Why is their pain greater than a mother who has actually been through a pregnancy and bonded with a child and then lost that child? Their pain is NOT greater than ours and they basically need to understand their pain is THEIR responsibilty to work on and fix. No one caused it. Least of all those who ARE fertile. They need to quit taking their pain and anger, and yes, BITTERNESS (see, this can be used the other way too people) to TAKE children NOT their own. Why should families and generations unrelated to them pay for THEIR suffering? Pain + pain has never equated to happiness and I too am over those who feel their pain trumps anyone elses so they can do what they want to make themselves feel better regardless of the cost.

   LOVE the analogy by the way! Perfect!

   • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 9:25 am |

     Two wrongs don’t make a right. Those who tell mothers who place their children for adoption to get over it are wrong. Just as those who tell infertiles to “just deal with it” are wrong as well.

     I do agree with you though that no ones pain trumps another. My pain doesn’t trump your pain or anyone else’s. This is not a contest. The one with the greatest pain doesn’t get a prize. But I don’t think anyone’s pain should be downplayed. Fertiles should not downplay infertiles pain. And infertiles should not downplay adoptees and birth/first parents pain. Just because one does downplay others pain doesn’t mean you should go back and do the same thing,

     • admin | September 12, 2013 at 11:54 am |

       Greg.. I completely agree it’s NOT a contest and what you are failing to realize here is that birthmotheers are NOT saying.. MY pain is huge, so give me BACK my child. The DIFFERENCE is that WHEN the infertile pain is used to rationalizes adoption, it is TOO MUCH and THEN deal with it applies. As in, you get all the understanding one can have, UNTIL you use your pain to inflict that pain on another. I don’t know how to say it any simpler.

       • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 1:38 pm |

         I don’t believe I’ve said anything about birth/first mothers saying they should get their child back because of their pain. So I’m unsure where that is coming from.

         Again, I’m not condoning actions. What I am saying is that we should address the feelings and emotions that lead to IF couples using unethical methods to adopt. For instance when someone commits a crime due to their poverty, we don’t condone their crime. What we should do is address poverty to help prevent crimes from happening. Does that make sense?

     • Myst | September 12, 2013 at 4:38 pm |

       That’s the issue though, most ‘infertiles’ are NOT told just to get over it in the same way. They are given excuses and ALLOWED, given PERMISSION, to involve themselves in unethical situations which wreak havoc on the lives of so many people… Havoc that spans generations incidentally.

       So no, no one is downplaying their pain as much as you feel they are. Whereas, losing a real living breathing child and getting told to get over that, well, that is totally what we mothers have to deal with our whole lives and then we put up with people like you coming to the ONLY places where we have a voice to tell us about your own pain, which we have already suffered because of so, no, I agree, it’s not a competition so PLEASE STOP MAKING IT ONE!!

       Going on about your loss to the victims of perpetrators who used the same loss you have, is just plain dumb. I get that you are broken up and are hurting but why come here of all places to lecture US who have suffered because of the likes of you? Sorry, it just doesn’t make sense.

       BTW, I haven’t downplayed your pain, I have drawn a line as to where your pain needs to end and you need to take accountability for it and own it. That is again, different. Just as we are told to take accountability for our pain (and everyone else’s) I am putting yours back on you. Don’t like it? Tough. I played no hand in your infertility or those who stole my child. So quit defending infertility as an excuse to harm others. Then we’ll actually have something to talk about!

       • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 6:26 pm |

         Most infertiles are told to get over it. However, they are told to get over it and “just adopt”. As I have said a bunch of times this afternoon, how do we get to where the response is different? As I told Claudia, it’s not your obligation to answer. I’m just saying that is something that needs to happen.

         And BTW, I never accused you of downplaying anyone’s pain.

         • Myst | September 13, 2013 at 12:14 am |

           Actually I have seen infertile couples given a lot of love and support and not to “get over it”. Maybe you can’t see the support because it hasn’t fixed the problem but its there… Unlike mothers in adoption loss and adopted adults who only get support from each other and those we take the time to educate. And yes, you indicated that I and others downplay infertile couple’s pain.

           • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 9:05 am |

             The reason you haven’t seen them get over it is because you never get over it. Nothing eliminates the pain. Just as a birth/first mother you will never “get over” your pain.

             My point is not to help them get over there pain but to prevent that pain from hurting others in the future. How do we get them to not screw people over like you were? That’s all I’m saying.

       • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 4:09 am |

         “lecture US who have suffered because of the likes of you?”

         I really do not understand why you are blaming random people when the real causes for relinquishment are economic.

         You suffered because you live in a shitty country with bad social supports.

         You needed low-pay day care and paid maternity leave. You didn’t get it and it was an economic injustice.

         Why don’t you focus on the real problem? (I am honestly perplexed by the lack of economic advocacy for low income women on this blog.)

         You didn’t suffer because Greg can’t produce sperm.

         • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 5:03 am |

           So Poll, basically you assume everyone on this blog is from USA? Or Canada? Wow. How limited your life view. There are actually other countries in this world, were you aware? Or do they not teach you that where you come from?
           Support in my country for mothers is actually good. I would thank you to keep your opinions off MY story because YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING about me or what happened.
           I never said what happened to me was because of Greg, again, learn to read – even the quote you put in in your comment “the likes of you” again, not saying Greg himself. Even Greg got that!

           • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:54 am |

             But that makes no sense – why would someone relinquish if one had access to paid maternity leave and low-cost day care that she could afford?

             The only other reasons I can think of would be mental illnesss/ severe depression or perhaps fear that a abusive boyfriend/husband would kill the baby or the mother, and fear that you couldn’t escape him after birth.

             I am quite serious – why would someone relinquish if they had the economic support and were mentally healthy? Surely people are not giving up babies out of some misguided sense of altruism towards “teh infertiles.” There’s no way a lot of real economic (or emotional pressure from family if the girl is underage) factors aren’t involved that are quite coercive.

             But once someone is 18 and out of the house and able to get away from coercive parents — if one has good economic support from the state there is no reason to relinquish.

             I mean, you can’t seriously be trying to say that mothers decide randomly to give up THEIR OWN BABIES because some people are “teh infertles.” That’s a bizarre argument.

             My partner says you all are wasting your time scapegoating “teh infertiles” because Americans are ignorant and don’t realize they are the only industrialized country in the world without paid maternity leave and socialized health care.

             I mean, what do you think is going to happen if all “teh infertiles” say, get killed or something. How would that change anything for the mothers? If you removed all demand – the same options still exist as you see today: foster care and orphanages (in some countries.) Foster care was always an option, and could have been chosen instead of relinquishment.

             So what changes? Let’s say every single person who suffers from infertile or sub-infertility dies TODAY. How does that change anything for vulnerable mothers?

             Because you and I both know that foster families who raise babies from birth ask the state to adopt even when that family has several other children. Infertility plays no role here. The family bonds to the infant and tightly attach if left with the family past a few months. You and I both know this.

             So what changes if all infertile people drop of the earth this afternoon? They all magically die. So what happens then?

             Infants go into foster care and then what happens? If mothers still can’t economically afford it….The state is going to revoke parental rights eventually.

             And, obviously foster care has always been an option. Unless it wasn’t present in your country – it was an option for you. Why didn’t you use it?

             • cb | September 15, 2013 at 7:03 pm |

               Poll, those are valid questions. And if you actually read other posts on Claud’s site, many of them will be answered.

           • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:55 am |

             btw- I’ve lived in several countries including the USA. I have more then one citizenship.

           • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm |

             Oh, that was Mylynda who needed just a little bit of money – about 6K to make it through school and for day care – and she could have made it with her baby.

             Really, I truly don’t understand why you all don’t attack the obvious- the economic problems like the lack of paid maternity leave that cause relinquishment.

             I am sympathetic to culture being a cause, but giving up a baby– it is so obvious that economic justice is central to solving this problem.

             There are over 300 million people in the U.S.A. All sorts of fertile people adopt. Celebrities adopt all the time who are fertile. Gay couples adopt.

             You’re not going to stop adoption by curing infertility or by your attempts to shame infertile couples into not adopting. Family formation is a powerful instinct. You need to work on the supply of domestic babies and stop the supply at the source. The people producing the supply are first-mothers. So don’t give first-mothers any reason to contact an adoption agency. You need to encourage them to keep their babies by providing an environment that will allow them to do so. Mothers need the economic tools to make it with an infant.

             The source for domestic infant adoptions are women who do not have the economic and social support that they needed to keep their babies.

             Policies such as paid maternity leave, free abortions, affordable access to medical and mental health care, and low-cost child care can pretty much solve domestic infant adoption.

             Because why else would anyone else put their child up for adoption but the lack of the above???? Once the above things are solved — What Possible Other Factors Would Cause Anyone To Give Up their own Infant?

             Mothers are not giving their newborns to strangers because they feel bad for people. They walked into the adoption agency for a reason. What pushed them into that situation? Why does the young mother think she can’t survive economically and keep her baby?

             Mothers need to have NO ECONOMIC REASONS to contact an adoption agency.

             And low income women need free access to abortions so nobody bears a child who does not want to do so.

             Only then will the numbers of domestic adoptions be reduced. You have to reduce the supply of the babies or the numbers of infant adoptions in the USA will never decrease.

             • myst1998 | September 15, 2013 at 5:28 pm |

               Seriously your ignorance and naievity in this subject is astounding, truly astounding. The above comments show it and how unwilling you are to learn.

               • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 9:44 pm |

                 You haven’t answered my question involving economics:

                 If the problem isn’t, at its root, economic injustice, what exactly is going on?

                 ie – if this problem can’t be solved with a better state services and a better social safety net — why not?

                 ie- Why wouldn’t paid maternity leave, medical care, and good economic support from the state stop most domestic infant adoptions happening today?

                 Because instituting the above are far more likely to happen then reducing demand enough to matter. There are far too many people living in the United States who are looking for infants to adopt.

                 Where is the flaw in my reasoning?

             • cb | September 15, 2013 at 6:51 pm |

               “The source for domestic infant adoptions are women who do not have the economic and social support that they needed to keep their babies.”

               Poll, it is more that just that – you might want to read TAO’s excellent reply explaining the differences between Canada and the US.
               What happens is that a large percentage of women who relinquish their children have recieved coercive counselling right from the start. The counselling involves exploiting the “unplanned aspect” of the pregnancy in that the woman is made to feel that her child deservies more than her – she is told that her child deserves parents htat have been planning for a child for a long time. There are documents out that that outline that thinking – if you go and read some of Claud’s other posts, there is one called “The Missing Piece” which outlines how to go about undermining a pregnant women’s feelings so that in the end, she ends up thinking that parenting her own child is selfish. Also the safety aspect is used on her, i.e.most caring mums want to keep their babies safe and again the counselling undermines that. So, ironically, it is often the caring expectant mums who do end up rellinquishing their child because they are made to feel that their child deserves more than them and they want to do best for their child.

               Poll, I can understand your naivete – when I first came online, I thought it was just about resources. That is until I came across the NCFA birthmother training scheme via another bloggers site about 3 years ago. In fact, I thought it was a joike at first, I didn’t think that that could seriously be a counselling program, So, in fairness’s sake, I thought I would go straight to the site myself and undertake the program (it is easily found online) – I was appalled to find that it was actually real.

               • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 9:53 pm |

                 I can understand why a woman who is dislocated and upset can get taken in by unethical people. The anti-choice people try to convince vulnerable people not to have an abortion. Likewise, I can see how a pregnant woman who ends up in an adoption agency can be persuaded and manipulated.

                 Here’s what I’m saying: People don’t end up in front of manipulators in adoption agencies unless that woman is already in crisis. People are much less vulnerable if they are not in crisis. Pregnancy becomes a crisis only when other things fall apart.

                 What needs to happen is for state services to be strong enough that she never ends up in those clinics.

                 Or women need to fund alternative clinics to HELP counsel pregnant women and offer money for abortion or support, or therapy, or information on how to get support.

                 These are concrete, material actions.

                 I am pro-choice and we work to raise funds for women who are too poor to afford abortions. We also fund clinics. We will also drive women to clinics if the closest clinic is not near by hometowns. We will also pay for women to afford motel lodging because of the stupid ultrasounds and waiting periods.

                 We don’t like the “birthright” clinics that give ultrasounds and try to convince people to give birth and put children up for adoption. We fund clinics to make sure there are low-cost

                 A simple thing that could be done is to fund alternative clinics. Put ads in newspapers. Offer therapy.

                 I do think, at a very basic level, women’s rights are promoted by material resources. That includes access to mental health therapists.

                 Anyways – that’s my two cents.

               • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 9:59 pm |

                 “That is until I came across the NCFA birthmother training scheme via another bloggers site about 3 years ago.”

                 This is appalling. Unfortunately, I am not surprised. I know what the pro-life crowd does to vulnerable teenagers who walk into their clinics looking for abortions. They guilt trip them and try to brainwash them. Teenagers, of course, are so vulnerable that such a thing is very disturbing to them.

                 That is why we fund clinics and put up our ads. Our goal is to be as visible as possible because we know very well what lengths manipulative people will do to control women’s bodies and their sexual and reproductive choices.

                 But resources are needed to be effective and visible. And, ultimately, offering therapy, information, and support is a material resource. It costs $$ and it is a support tool.

                 You need intervention at the point of crisis.

                 • admin | September 16, 2013 at 11:05 am |

                   Poll.. Your questions ARE valid, but as it has been said, there is way more to the adoption industry in the USA then what is in this ONE Post. Some of them will be under the “cultural Views” heading and other will be under the Adoption industry heading” but it really IS a well oiled machine.
                   But to perfectly demonstrate the point, do me a favor and pretend for one minute that you are facing an unplanned pregnancy and you want to find resources and information. Do some goggling.. check out the yellow pages.. makes some phone calls and fill out some requests for information. Keep track of what you search for and where you end up. Notice the language used and the information presented. Just run with it for a few days. Check your mail. Give them a phone number to contact you. Play the part. Make your own determination.

                   • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:04 pm |

                     I am a opinionated and stubborn person, so I’m probably not a good test case.

                     I very much agree with you that adoption agencies can create coercive situations and present information and the situation in a coercive way.

                     I think we may have different takes on the most effective way to approach the problem.

   • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 6:36 pm |

     “Mothers who lose or place their children for adoption often get told to move on with their lives; move forward, don’t look back. Why then are those who are unable to have babies not (gently) told to do the same thing?”

     Is this healthy? Is it helpful? Is this a good way to deal with a person in trauma?

     No, of course it isn’t.

     It’s interesting the anger towards people who are infertile is much greater then other people who adopt infants. (The gay community, for example.)

     I am glad you are not acting like this towards other people, but it’s very interesting. And rather odd.

     Is it because it’s less acceptable to be like this towards the gay community?

     There are many claims to the effect that people suffering from infertility receive sympathy from society. I strongly disagree with that, btw. Read any on-line article discussing infertility. Women with infertility in particular are castigated for their sexual, marital, and career choices. They are blamed for their medical disability.

     It’s similar to how people react to smokers who get lung cancer. There is an underlying anger at women for failing to procreate. She is “abnormal” and it must be her “fault” for her “choices” in life. Any economic coercion in her life is dismissed. Any social restrictions on her life is ignored. Any ethical understanding that it is inappropriate to force women to give birth at the age that THAT individual deems appropriate is disregarded.

     AND – society gets on anyone who suffers from infertility if they don’t want to adopt. “Why are you doing IVF?” “Why don’t you just adopt?” “Why don’t you adopt from foster care?” “There are so many needy children in the world!” “You are selfish to go to the doctor and receive fertility treatments.”

     You are selfish, you are selfish if you DON’T ADOPT. That’s what society says.

     When you tell people they are responsible for adopting children from foster care, you ain’t saying anything people haven’t heard 20 times before by idiots. Do you think Greg hasn’t heard “JUST ADOPT.” A thousand times by now?

     Do you think he hasn’t heard that he is responsible for adopting foster children?

     Do you think he hasn’t been told to “just adopt” an domestic infant.

     Do you think he hasn’t been told to “just fly to China” or “Korea” and adopt?

     PEOPLE GOT A LOTTA NERVE. -Neko Case
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXl870NoF4E

6. Melynda | September 10, 2013 at 6:48 pm |

   Myst – Somedays, I feel like infertile people should be treated just like us, without mercy and without grace and without any kindness. There is precious little gentleness for natural mothers, as you are well aware.

   Claudia said, “I bet that if you would offer 6K to half the mothers who are ‘considering adoption’ or ‘making a loving adoption plan’ it would be enough for them to find a way to parent their wanted child!!!”

   $6K would have been the difference between my daughter staying with me and not. I needed help with daycare expenses, which back then was about $400 a month for full time care so I could work and go to school. FOUR HUNDRED FREAKING DOLLARS. $6K for childcare would have seen me through the last few months of my schooling and then some.

   • myst1998 | September 10, 2013 at 7:19 pm |

     Yes Melynda, too true, too true. I agree with you, we are not treated with gentleness and we are certainly not respected as human beings! I guess I feel that if we approach those who are so hateful with a loving approach, it might possibly break through some of that bitterness and anger at our fertile bodies (ass if we had any say in who would be fertile or not!)

     But yes, I agree with you. We are not given gentleness so I totally understand why they shouldn’t be either.

     • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 6:38 pm |

       “that bitterness and anger at our fertile bodies”

       are you freaking kidding me?!?

       This is what I mean about the comment section.

       Why don’t you just call them barren old hags? Anti-feminist bullshit.

       oh wait, you basically are!

       • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:11 am |

         No, I don’t believe I am kidding actually, very serious or I wouldn’t have said it.
         Anti-feminist? Bahahaha, you are hilarious! Thanks for the laugh 🙂

         • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:49 am |

           yes, do laugh. Laugh at the fact that over a 100,000 babies were adopted in the U.S. last year.

           Because your name calling is just what is needed to affect political change. I’m sure it’s going to be very effective.

           • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:59 am |

             Um, I’m not trying to affect political change with you. And this post wasn’t trying to either.

             I think it’s funny you try to change and twist the conversation to deflect from the statements you make that are wrong. You called me anti-feminist… I laughed at that, hardly name calling!

             • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 5:09 pm |

               “Um, I’m not trying to affect political change with you. And this post wasn’t trying to either.”

               Well, then what is the fucking point? If you can’t change things so that other women in the future aren’t hurt…are you just here to vent or something?

               I found this blog through the New Republic article who called this movement the new reproductive rights and civil rights movement. I was intrigued! So I checked out the blogs and on the front page was this article criticizing infertile women.

               I can’t see advocacy for political policy or social change that would help women in trouble. There’s no movement to get economic support or medical help for these women who need it. There’s just a lot of name calling.

               If that’s what you want to do, that’s your business. But this isn’t a social change movement, that’s for sure.

               And it won’t help any women in the future. It’s not trying to change anything or improve the situation for women.

               Women walk into an adoption agency for a reason. You have to reduce the reasons if you want to change anything.

               If you just want to vent- ok, whatever – but that’s not going to get anything done. And I think you all are missing the central problem, which is economic justice and support of mothers.

           • TAO | September 15, 2013 at 10:13 am |

             Poll,

             Your 100,000 babies adopted in the US last year is incorrect.

             In the Domestic Infant Adoption Agency arena of adoption (DIA) there are no statistics but best estimates by some agencies reporting to their Lobbying group the NCFA puts it around 14,000.

             The hundred thousand includes CHILDREN from foster care adoptions where their parents had their rights terminated and adoptions from over seas that seldom if every is less than a year old.

             You have to go back to the late 50’s, early 60’s to find 100,000 babies adopted in a single year in the DIA arena.

             • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 5:16 pm |

               Interesting — that number supports my point that then that bolsters my point that the numbers of domestic infant adoption will not go down, even if every infertile couple dropped off the face of the earth today. The demand is much bigger then the supply.

               14K! 1 percent of 300 million is 3 million people. There are at least 3 million people in the U.S.A. who are gay and lesbian. The younger generation of gay couples want kids, unlike older generations who assumed they wouldn’t be able to have a family. They are getting legally married and many want children.

               There are lots of fertile couples who want a little boy or a little girl to round out their gender balance.

               Getting rid of “teh infertiles” does nothing to solve the problem of domestic adoption. The source needs to slow down.

               There were 8 adoptions in Australia last year, I believe, out of a population of about 20 million.

               Australia has paid maternity leave, a socialized health care system, state-funded abortions, and a lot of support for low-income mothers that women in the USA do not get access to.

               • TAO | September 15, 2013 at 6:20 pm |

                 You are correct that the US does not have all the social service supports offered by other developed countries.

                 What you are missing in the equation in comparing those countries to the US is how they counsel women regarding unplanned pregnancies – even Canada which in some provinces allow private agencies – the counselling is non-directive vs directed counseling such as the US trains CPC’s, and Adoption Agency counsellors on (of course they say it is non-directive but it isn’t – and that counselling program was paid for by the federal government.)

                 It is the relentless advertising (one agency boasts they spend over $1 Mill per year advertising for “Birthmothers”, TV reality shows, and the message driven counselling to choose adoption by private companies, moving the mother away from her support system to a different state – that keeps the supply going.

                 The pre-birth matching that is part of the method, and the coached relationship created where the prospective parents are even in the delivery room and cut the umbilical cord severing the connection to the mother – whether intended or not – that is coercion.

                 You can also add in the severe limiting of fathers rights that are more specifically designed to deny him any rights. Just read any adoption agency website to see how they deal with “birth fathers”.

                 The timeframe in some states, the mother can irrevocably terminate her rights within 12 hours of giving birth (compared to a month or 6 weeks in other countries). A couple of states have gone so far that the mother can terminate her rights before birth, and if she wants to revoke must do so in a prescribed manner within a specified number of hours/days of birth.

                 Then throw in the carrot of OPEN adoption that is not legally enforced to give them the sense of the best of both worlds – you know until the papers are signed and the adoption is closed.

                 You also need to remember that most state laws don’t even speak to any special requirements when the mother is under-age – she is allowed to sign without even a GAL or counsel of her own and is assumed to be an adult regardless if she is 13 or 17.

                 And of course don’t forget the abstinence only teaching in the highly religious states and that societal stigma there for an unwed mother is more aptly compared to stigma and shame shown to mothers from the BSE.

                 All those factors play just as much, if not more of a role, in adoption in the US compared to the other countries than simply the dearth of social service supports in the US.

                 • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:09 pm |

                   I live in Canada. It’s not quite as you think it is concerning infant adoption.

                   btw- I saw an ad for that reality show the other day. We get all the US channels here.

                   There are private infant adoptions here. I know a gay couple who put together a “profile” book, and adopted – just like in the States. They were matched before birth.

                   http://www.canadaadopts.com/canada/domestic_private.shtml

                   http://www.canadaadopts.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000571

                   There are also the “birthright” clinics here that try to manipulate women into not having an abortion and pushing the to adopt. These ads are all over the buses right now.

                   There are fewer people living in Canada, and 1 year long paid maternity leave, and single-payer free health care & free abortions. So, there is a much lower demand.

                   Private adoptions are still big $$ here, 10-20K.

                   The big difference is that Canada is a socialist country that provides more of a support system for mothers.

   • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 4:00 am |

     “I needed help with daycare expenses, which back then was about $400 a month for full time care so I could work and go to school.”

     “Somedays, I feel like infertile people should be treated just like us, without mercy and without grace and without any kindness.”

     You could find allies but you are intent on alienating people.
     Scapegoating is easy.

     And you are scapegoating people who would work for state-subsidized day care so someone else would NEVER have to go through what you went through.

     That’s what really matters in the end. Where the rubber hits the road– do you want to stop the practices? You need to affect supply. If you had free or inexpensive day care you could have kept your baby.

     If you lived in Quebec you would have kept your baby. They have very low cost, state-subsidized day care.

     And you would have gotten a year of paid maternity leave. Even McDonalds would have paid it. FOR A YEAR. Federal Law.

     It’s not about scapegoating “infertiles,” it’s about social justice.

7. Amy | September 10, 2013 at 7:52 pm |

   There are plenty of things I want in this life, yet will never have. I want my baby back. I want the fair-haired, 7 lb. 4 oz., 21″ long beautiful baby girl that I lost in 1985. In addition, I would like my original self back…the one I lost also in 1985 when the trauma of losing my daughter to adoption forever changed who I was…who I was SUPPOSED to be. I’d also like to have TRUE peace, and holidays without the feeling of “someone is missing.” I’d like to have my role as her only mother back, and for my “kept” kids to have normal sibling relationships with their big sister. I’ll never have what *I* want…all because 2 people who couldn’t have their own children wanted a baby girl.

   Sometimes we just have to accept the fact that, unfair as it might be, we can’t always have what we want. I’ve had to accept it…certainly others can too.

   Thank you, Claud, for putting the things I have been thinking for YEARS into words, for everyone to read. The few times I’ve broached this subject, I have been told how unfair and selfish it is to hold those views. So be it. It is what it is…thanks again! You’re kinda my hero 🙂

   • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 6:42 pm |

     “all because 2 people who couldn’t have their own children wanted a baby girl.”

     really? This is really why you relinquished? It was all because two people were infertile?

     You are aware that the demand for infant adoption would exceed supply even if all infertile couples were removed from the United States, aren’t you?

     • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:36 am |

       Lol, um how? You don’t know very much it would seem about the demand in adoption and how the infant adoption industry is VERY much driven by those who cannot conceive.

       • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:46 am |

         Demand far exceeds supply in adoption. You need to address the supply if you want to reduce adoption numbers.

         But yes, LOL or whatnot. Your political strategy is not going to work if you don’t address supply. .

         The numbers will not change in the States, in fact they will increase, UNLESS you reduce supply.

         You are not going to reduce supply through a strategy of attempting to shame “teh infertiles.”

         That is an idiotic political strategy and will do NOTHING to reduce numbers.

         Look up the number today. Look it up 10 years from now. Look it up 20 years from now.

         • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:56 am |

           Adoption doesn’t fit the usual methods of measuring supply and demand so your models that you follow won’t work.
           If you knew anything about adoption (which clearly you don’t) you would know that the BSE when babies were literally stolen from their mothers were done so JUST to cater to infertile married women and to punish young women for having sex. It isn’t widely advertised but that is at the heart of the matter and things haven’t changed since then. Older child adoption and foster care adoption is different and not in the same demand but womb wet babies who are supposed to be blank slates for adopters to pretend they gave birth and can play mommy and daddy IS driven by mostly infertile couples and gay couples are coming into that although many I know of use surrogates or sperm donors, not adoption. If you knew anything about adoption you would know this. But it keeps coming back to the fact you really don’t.

           • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 5:27 pm |

             “IS driven by mostly infertile couples and gay couples are coming into that although”

             It’s driven by the supply of infants. Women give up infants for economic reasons. QED.

             14K adoptions a year is nothing. All the infertile couples in the USA could die today and the numbers won’t go down. The USA has a population of over 300 million people.

             I too have read _Wake Up Little Susie_ and other books about the baby scoop era.

             I got you mixed up with another commenter who said she would have kept her baby if she had 6K. That’s what I’m talking about — economics are central. It’s not about the demand, it’s about the supply.

             Besides, you aren’t going to be able to stop demand, so why not work on what will actually help people — giving people the economic and social tools they need to keep their babies?

             And I’m not talking about the baby scoop era — I am talking about women TODAY who feel like they have to give up their babies. The future can be changed, but not the past.

             Clearly women need economic help/ maternity leave/ free abortions and socialized health care. This will reduce the number of domestic adoption.

             How is this not obvious?

             Think about it — 14K domestic adoptions per/year in a population of more then 300 million people. How can you possibly think that those babies won’t be snapped up by other forms of demand?

             Look, I don’t in the end really care. If you want to blame infertile couples for adoptions that’s your thing. I think it’s a waste of time and won’t reduce the numbers of adoptions. It’s also obnoxious, but I don’t have to read about it, so whatever.

             • admin | September 16, 2013 at 12:26 pm |

               Poll.. really..can you get OFF this one post already that CLEARLY said WAS A RANT:
               Here’s SOLUTIONS that address many of the issues you are talking about:http://www.adoptionbirthmothers.com/the-solutions-2/ You know.. I was going to start listing other posts here that have already discussed these issues.. because it’s NOT LIKE WE AR NOT AWARE OF THEM…but I am not going to waste my time. They are easy to find should you choose to do more than spend your own time here ranting about how we are too mean and stupid understand the issues.

8. cb | September 10, 2013 at 8:33 pm |

   I’ve had many exchanges with young Greg and after a while (well, actually after a short time), one realises one is on a flogging to nothing because any attempts to empathise are dismissed with the attitude of “well, unless you are infertile, your empathy means nothing because you can never understand what I’m going through”.

   Also, I’m “childfree” and he made many assumptions about why I was “childfree” without knowing anything about why that is so.

9. Greg | September 10, 2013 at 9:16 pm |

   I know I told you I wasn’t going to respond, but F it. I think I owe it to you to explain. I would have preferred to do this over email but I probably should have initiated that.

   First I need to apologize again for hitting you with a low blow on twitter. You can say I didn’t upset you but the fact that you wrote a post on it says otherwise. You went for the jugular with some of your comments in this post as a response but I’m not going to address those it can only get worse if I do.

   What I will address though is why I have been responding and going after you and others who attack infertiles. You say they aren’t directed at me personally and you’re right. However, as part of the infertility community I feel an obligation to bring awareness on infertility and what can drive an infertile person to make the decisions they sometimes do. Just as you come out and defend birth/first mothers as you do. That’s not to say I am condoning or defending their actions. But in order to prevent future people from making these decisions I think we need to address what drives them to act this way. Address the demand in adoption and third party reproduction rather than just the supply.

   Again, I don’t defend people who: closed adoptions, will over advertise themselves to expectant parents, will say anything or pay anything to become parents, who lie to their children about their conception and don’t help their children confront their feelings of hurt. All I am saying we need to recognize why these people act this way and address it. There are many infertiles who get outcasted from social circles and families just because they are infertile. Infertility breaks up marriages and can even lead to serious depression that leads to suicide or other types of death. I’m not asking for sympathy or compassion just recognition of what it does to people. Recognition can go a long way.

   The best example I can give is the idea of an “angry adoptee” who acts out with anger. Instead of just saying, “oh they’re just an angry adoptee who had a bad experience” shouldn’t we try to recognize what has caused this anger that led them to act out? Of course we should so that future adoptees aren’t acting out in anger. You don’t condone them acting out either, you try to address what lead to them acting out.

   Personally I would not fundraise to adopt or even pay for fertility treatments for that matter. It’s not something I would feel comfortable doing because I don’t believe its right. Same goes for closing an adoption which benefits no one and hurts the child. I also wouldn’t get involved in a situation where both expectant parents weren’t on board with the adoption. I’d rather wait longer for the right situation than shoot for the quick one. But I recognize why other couples might act differently. I don’t condone their behavior but I get what lead them to act that way.

   By the way, I know I get classified as a PAP but to be honest I don’t know whether we’ll pursue adoption. To be honest we may not. While you may consider that a “victory”. The reality is you and others in your community will have had no impact on that decision. In addition, in a $13 billion industry $30,000 means nothing. There will be plenty of others who are less informed who will take our place. So, I’m just one half of an infertile couple not sure where life is heading not a PAP.

   Finally, you can sit here and talk about how you have sympathy for the infertile but your actions say otherwise. You know what, that’s fine. You aren’t obligated to be sympathetic for something that never impacted you personally. Just be honest about it rather than saying one thing and contradicting it with another thing.

   I wish you all the best.

   • 7rin | September 11, 2013 at 6:47 am |

     There IS recognition of the trauma infertiles face though – that’s why the Adoption INDUSTRY caters so specifically to you and your *desires*.

     Btw, “angry” adoptees (a) have a RIGHT to be “angry” because THEY (read us) are the ones who lost EVERYTHING so that (usually) you infertiles can have what you *want* (not *need*), and (b) are (most often) angry at THE SYSTEM and fighting to change it, not “acting out”.

     Also, I call bullshit. If someone was willing to hand their freshly-squeezed wombwet over to you now, no questions asked, you’d fuckin’ jump at the chance to PRETEND that you’ve had a kid.

     Finally, it’s possible to be sympathetic about something without giving into pandering to support the UNETHICAL ACTIONS that so very many of those somethings do.

     • Greg | September 11, 2013 at 9:30 am |

       No doubt the industry takes advantage of the emotionally vulnerable both PAP and expectant parents with unplanned pregnancies.

       You have absolutely every right to be anger but I realize you aren’t just angry for the sake of doing so. There is a lot of grief and pain that has led to that anger.

       As for what I would do, you couldn’t be more wrong. The first thought I would have was how can I explain this to the child. Next thoughts would be would we be able to parent in this situation and have the bio parents in the picture having a role that goes beyond just receiving updates. But I know others would jump at that opportunity. That doesn’t make me a better person than them though. I don’t judge them for that either.

       You’re right it is possible to be sympathetic toward infertiles and not support unethical adoptions. However, that’s not something you and others have ever exhibited. But again you aren’t obligated to be sympathetic.

       • Laurel Ehrichs | September 12, 2013 at 1:19 am |

         This seems to be a common ideology of potential adoptive parents. That all negative reactions could be positively parented into perspective. That an angry adoptee is clearly the result of faulty or insufficient effort in parenting.

         You do get that it’s a crap shoot for you as much as it is for the relinquishing parents as to how their child will react to their own narrative?

         • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 7:38 am |

           Laurel,

           I look at it is making the best of a less than ideal situation. I recognize that no matter what there is likely going to be some type of hurt on the adoptee end that is out of anyone’s control. All an AP working with birth/first parents is not make a less than ideal situation worse.

           And again I am not a prospective adoptive parent. I have no idea whether we will pursue adoption. Heck we haven’t even decided whether we will start looking at private or government run agencies. There are things we need to get through first before we think about that together.

         • RLDavies | September 16, 2013 at 10:57 am |

           I’m glad someone brought this up. I call it the Magic Band-aid Of Adopter Love. It’s all part of the underlying self-superiority/entitlement issue.

           “Adoption sucks for other families because those adopters aren’t as righteous/brilliant/awesome/deserving/special/loving/insightful/wise/lovable/etc./etc. as WE are. Surely everyone agrees that WE deserve an extra-special pass to buy babies because WE are such awesomely exceptionally superior people who will make awesomely exceptionally superior parents!”

           It’s an inability (and in some cases, a flat-out refusal) to come to terms with the real issues behind adoptee trauma/grief and the issues that result because they’re too wrapped up in ego and fantasy.

           They’re even more dangerous for adoptees, in my opinion, because their expectations are as inflated as their egos, and when those expectations aren’t met, things go very badly for the child–who is CLEARLY defective, since we all know that an “unsuccessful situation” couldn’t possibly be the fault of the awesomely exceptionally superior adopters.

           I personally don’t even know why anyone even bothers interacting with Greg. He claims to want to learn from adoptees and moms, but really he’s just jockeying for acquiescence. He’s wants his pass. He believes he’s a VERY special snowflake and he gets VERY perturbed when others don’t recognize it. Hell, even his infertility is special! Let him sing you his sad song about being EXCEPTIONALLY infertile! Since birth!

           I blocked him long ago. He’s a self-congratulatory ass and professional victim.

       • 7rin | September 13, 2013 at 1:46 am |

         As I’ve pointed out before to you, *I* have my own personal experience with (secondary) infertility, yet you refuse to accept anything I say on the issue and instead claim I don’t understand it. You’re right I have no sympathy for it though because sympathy is for when people haven’t experienced the same thing – hence why you say you’re sympathetic to adoptees, but you’ll never be able to emphasise with us.

         • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 8:58 am |

           This is actually the first time I’ve seen you mention your secondary infertility issues.

     • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 6:51 pm |

       “Also, I call bullshit. If someone was willing to hand their freshly-squeezed wombwet over to you now, no questions asked, you’d fuckin’ jump at the chance to PRETEND that you’ve had a kid.”

       Yeah man, those infertile barren women ARE EVIL AND THEY ARE THE DEVIL KILL THE WITCH KILL HER!!!

       Seriously, you think all people who are suffering from infertility are evil.

       And, Claudia — just how do you expect a feminist to respond to this bullshit? seriously – just how do you expect someone to respond who sees this?

       Greg sounds reasonable. He sounds respectful. In return people are shitting all over him.

       What am I missing here?

       • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 6:52 pm |

         GREG HAS SAID THAT AS OF NOW HE DOESN’T WANT TO ADOPT

         WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

         • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 6:56 pm |

           yikes, never mind- I already know.

           You’ve gone through such trauma that you can’t even be around a person who is experiencing infertility because it’s triggering your trauma.

           Greg, just my advice, get the hell out of this environment. People are not going to be able to be rational, or kind, or whatnot. They are reacting emotionally and you are triggering their trauma.

           They can’t deal, basically, even if you don’t want to adopt. Just the fact you are infertile and adjusting to the diagnosis is freaking their shit out.

           They are going to emotionally project all over you. I feel bad for them because they are acting out of trauma – so it’s not that they will mean to be hurtful. (or maybe they are, “hurt people hurt people” as the quote goes.)

           • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:31 am |

             Yikes you have no clue do you? Wow, what an imbecile. Take your own advice and go.

       • RLDavies | September 16, 2013 at 11:29 am |

         Months and months of him relentlessly trolling every reform-minded adoptee and mother he can find. Check his Twitter feed sometime. I blocked him long ago.

         And seriously, what’s your fucking malfunction? Are you an adoptee who’s lost her mother, her family, her identity, her heritage? Are you a mother who’s lost her child? What makes you feel entitled to be so wretchedly condescending to those who have? What justifies all the scolding and guilting and screaming you’ve done here?

         Do you really see yourself as part of ANY kind of solution? SERIOUSLY?

         If you don’t like what’s being written here, why don’t you just fuck off?

   • myst1998 | September 12, 2013 at 1:18 am |

     Greg, I wonder if you read the full post? I mean, really read it and let it filter through? I feel you have kind of missed the point to all of this.

     You say that none of us sympathise or have empathy for those who have suffered or suffer with infertilty. Puh-leese! Why do you think so many mothers fall into the adoption trap into the first place? For me, my empathy was my undoing. It was the hook that got me the worst. The reason I listened and agreed to things that had I been unsympathetic and more self focussed would have realised were just lies playing on my feelings.

     You really need a reality check. Infertilty is no one else’s responsibilty BUT that of the person who has it. Is it awful? Hell YES! It is heartbreaking (I have seen enough very close people deal with this and have been on the end of very long, tear filled from both of us, phone calls with my best friend about it). However, infertilty, like ALL OTHER GRIEF and ISSUES in life, has a natural boundary. UNLIKE other issues etc, it has been allowed by society to CROSS that boundary and it has been allowed to HURT and BREAK UP families that would be seen in any other circumstance as outright wrong.

     People with infertility are one party of people. Some deal with their pain to a liveable/manageable stage. Others however, seek to ease their pain by causing pain in others – through adoption.

     The adoption industry has capitalised on this to some extent and feeds the message to those with infertility that they can “just adopt” but their needs to be some accountability at some point taken by those affected by infertility and not a blame shifting game. No one FORCES anyone to sign up for adoption; to seek to adopt. But there are plenty of stories out there of women who are forced to part with their babies for the sake of the PAPs.

     Not all couples affected by infertility seek to adopt incidentally and I know people personally and of others who have sought to include children in their lives through other avenues. They have faced the hard stuff and have taken accountabilty for something that is horrible but ultimately their pain and awful predicament.

     What Claud and others (like me) are trying to say is yes, we do sympathise and empathise but there is a line and once anyone crosses that line and seeks to ease their pain by using others, that is where our empathy clears up.

     By constantly and somewhat blindly defending those who suffer with infertility, you come across as defending those who use their pain to hurt others in their quest to bring relief. You invalidate the pain of mothers and fathers and adopted persons by blanket defending the actions of ALL infertile couples and that is where you run into strife.

     I get you want to stand up for yourself and others in your boat and that is fine. It is HOW and where you go with that. You need to pick your battles and you will always plain out lose when you defend infertilty as a reason to adopt with those who have been treated so criminally by those with infertilty.

     In reality, we should be able to emapthise with each other. An infertile couple has faced loss and heartbreak over the realisation they will never experience the joy of parenthood. I don’t doubt how soul destroying that must be because if it happened to me I would be crushed, crazy even. But that loss doesn’t trump another mother’s right to raise her child. In fact, I see an opening for a couple to be a part of a child AND mother’s lives by helping and supporting them through the challenges of early days. In our world where we have so little support and no concept of real community, couples faced with infertility could open their hearts and homes to a mother struggling without support and be a family. But that doesn’t happen and so it gets ugly and messy when it really doesn’t need to be.

     Fertile people are not to blame for people with infertilty. I get it sucks to be reminded of the loss but being fertile is not our fault. We were born that way. It happened that way. And I am over the pandering to people who feel they have the right to dismiss my loss of a real, living, breathing child; one that ACTUALLY exists so they can wallow in their sorrow some more and lash out. That isn’t okay for anyone so why is it okay for those suffering from infertility?

     Anyway, I am sure I have wasted my energy commenting. I just don’t get why you cannot see what is going on here. I am truly sorry for your lot in life. I am. But please understand, there is a line. And that line is “First do no harm”. Rant, rave, scream, cry – that is all good stuff that we need to do when we hurt. But as soon as we start looking for others in this world to fix our hurts by hurting them, that line is crossed and that is when the victim becomes the perpetrator.

     • 7rin | September 12, 2013 at 3:55 am |

       ^That

     • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 7:52 am |

       Myst,

       I also question whether you are reading my comments fully. I don’t think I’ve ever said “all of you” don’t empathize. Only some have exhibited little to no empathy.

       Again, I understand the point about crossing the line. However, you are missing my point about needing to address what goes into driving a person to cross that line. Again I do not condone or defend these actions.

       My infertility will never be cured and I accept that. Whether we continue to live childless by circumstance or decide to adopt my infertility will always be. It’s not anyone’s fault either it was just something that I was born with.

       Finally just because you know someone who went through infertility doesn’t mean you understand it. I have a close friend who is an adoptee who became a birth/first mother. I also grew up with a number of kids who were adopted. Does that mean I fully understand the experiences of adoptees and birth/first parents? No, it doesn’t.

       • 7rin | September 12, 2013 at 9:48 am |

         No, you just don’t recognise that empathy because you’re far too caught up being an Angry Infertile.

         Greg, a question? Do you believe Secondary Infertility actually really exists? Or do you dismiss those who have already created life as not *really* understanding Infertility(tm) because they’ve already been ‘lucky enough’ to spawn their own crotch-dropping?

         • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 10:11 am |

           Actually I do have empathy for adoptees even someone like yourself. There is a pain there that I could never understand.

           To answer your question, I absolutely believe in secondary infertility and that there is a pain involved with it regardless of the outcome. Much of the pain that leads primary infertile people to act out is similar to those who experience secondary infertility. While I would trade places with a secondary infertile in a heartbeat it doesn’t mean I don’t recognize and understand to an extent what they go through.

           BTW, I see what you are trying to do here. You are trying to get under my skin and lash out at you. Try as you may I won’t get suckered in again. I notice how when I do come back with a response you weren’t seeking that you don’t respond. So keep trying on suckering me in because I won’t be suckered in. I get your deal you have little interest in engaging in a civil discussion.

           • 7rin | September 13, 2013 at 1:50 am |

             It’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to have empathy for adoptees because you have never experienced being adopted.

             Lol @ your idiotic assumptions in your final paragraph. Pray tell how asking whether you believe in secondary infertility is in any way “trying to get under your skin” (which it obviously did because all of a sudden we have Defensive Greg on show).

       • Myst | September 12, 2013 at 4:27 pm |

         Greg, yes, I am fully reading your posts. And I keep coming back to the same points I made above.

         I never said I understood what being infertile is about so I would thank you NOT to out words in my mouth. I said I empathised, TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

         • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 5:45 pm |

           Then why are you continuing to harp on the point that I am defending the actions when I have repeatedly said that I am not? If you were reading my posts then you wouldn’t continue to say that.

           • Myst | September 12, 2013 at 11:45 pm |

             For someone who harps on and finds everything and anything to argue over it is hilarious you are accusing me of harping on, lol!

             Um, the very fact you are here trying to get us to see your perspective is defending actions. You can’t seem to leave the infertility issue alone in any way shape or form (thus blindly defending at all twists and turns even when you think you are not). This post by Claudia was addressing a very specific topic and was not actually about infertility per se, but rather how those who suffer and don’t deal with their infertility then use it to hurt others. I have read back over your posts and the responses by others and you just keep, almost deliberately it seems, to miss the point of this whole post. So keep missing it, this is no longer about educating or empathising or trying to find common ground but a typical male pissing contest response. Seriously, if you want the last word, have it already because this conversation is going nowhere. You simply refuse to see the real issue in this and therefore will never understand this post or what any of us say.

     • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 6:12 pm |

       I missed this line earlier:

       “In our world where we have so little support and no concept of real community, couples faced with infertility could open their hearts and homes to a mother struggling without support and be a family. But that doesn’t happen and so it gets ugly and messy when it really doesn’t need to be.”

       I hate when this gets thrown out there. Just as expectant mothers with unplanned pregnancies are not obligated to provide a child for infertile couples, infertile couples are not obligated to provide support to expectant mothers with unplanned pregnancies to parent their children. Expectant mothers aren’t entitled for that support just as Infertile couples are not entitled to the Expectant mothers child.

       • Myst | September 12, 2013 at 11:54 pm |

         Oh diddums Greg, seriously suck it up. Get over yourself. Grow up. There are millions of people all over the world who have to deal with things and they don’t bellyache to people like you do. And you chose the wrong people to bellyache too. You say you want to find the best in a situation, I gave you one such situation and you get all offended over it. You don’t really have to say much, it’s your actions now that prove you are just another bitter infertile who is trying to convince a group of people who were hurt by the likes of you that there is a different perspective to be had and they have excuses. Well go tell someone who actually gives a damn. You contradict yourself through your actions and I have seen you comments in other blogs to other people so I know how you feel from YOUR words. So you can try to ‘get’ things here but then you go and show you ‘get’ nothing by your other comments. Waste of time.

         • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 8:32 am |

           What I am trying to do is convince you that that preventing an infertile couple from becoming entitled to the point where it leads them to hurt someone like yourself and your child or a donor conceived child needs is an issue not talked about enough. I think in order to do that we need to address what leads them to cross that line. The only way we can do that is by learning why someone crosses that line understand it and figure out what can be done to prevent it.

           A lot of times I don’t explain myself well which is why I think you have that impression of me. That is on me.

           • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:23 am |

             Whew! Okay, so that makes sooo much more sense. I would like that to happen too. I’m just not sure how that could happen. It would have to be through others who have been down that road and who can understand the issues and come out the other side (not fixed necessarily but accepting of their own situation without hurting others). It’s a good point you raise.

             • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 7:14 am |

               Accepting their own situation is part of the process but there is a lot of work to be done to work through the process.

       • 7rin | September 13, 2013 at 1:55 am |

         No, because Entitled Infertiles would far rather help themselves to SOMEONE ELSE’S child than they’d be willing to *truly* help a kid by ensuring that kid gets to keep its mom.

         Honestly, how can adopters *truly* expect people to believe that they really do love the kids they’re raising when they have no interest in preserving the kid’s life within its own family?

         • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 5:26 am |

           What does it have to be black and white? Why couldn’t infertiles not get involved in a situation that isn’t theirs to resolve? Why do expectant mothers with unplanned pregnancies have to rely on infertile couples to support them?

           • Myst | September 13, 2013 at 6:51 am |

             They aren’t. That is why you are missing the point. No one said, including me, that it is the infertile’s role to support the mother. What I DID say, is that instead of looking to adopt and take a child they are not owed, they can get involved in a child’s life in another way… And then I gave an example which you trashed. Frankly, I don’t expect infertile’s to have anything to do with mothers facing unplanned pregnancies BUT when those infertile’s SEEK to adopt to fill their need of a child then I feel if they are wanting someone else’s child then they should be open to having mother AND baby. If not, then they should back the hell away. They are NOT entitled to another mother’s child and that goes for infertiles or fertiles.

             • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 8:03 am |

               Ah, I get you now. I think we are on the same page. Those infertiles looking to adopt are doing so not because they are looking to help a child and/or family in need but because they are looking to start a family (in most but not all cases). I think (correct me if I’m wrong) you are alluding to adoptive parents who believe they are saving a child and at the same time filling the void they have, when in reality they are doing neither. You are calling them out to see what their true intentions are. If that’s the case I get where you are going and agree with you.

         • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 7:51 am |

           Most of the time an infertile cou

     • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:04 pm |

       It’s not the fault of infertility that your relinquished or got adopted or whatever your connection to adoption is.

       The disease of infertility is not the causal factor relinquishment because it doesn’t address the coercion and lack of control.

       A gay couple is identically situated. Yet the “gayness” obviously does not cause adoption.

       Should you fight “gayness” because it creates “a demand” for adoption? Should you fight gay marriage because “the gays” might want to start a family?

       Should you blame those people for being gay? Because if they were het they would have no problem creating a baby?

       That’s crazy yeah? That’s exactly how it sounds to me when you talk about “teh infertiles.”

       It’s like saying someone who shops at wallmart is responsible for child labor. Well, sort of.. but I’ve never found demand arguments very persuasive.

       • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:30 am |

         Actually, infertility is a direct root cause of much of the demand in adoption. Anyone denying that obviously lacks a brain. I am not against same sex couples but I am against them adopting. Their situation or choices (for those that I KNOW who have chosen to be in same sex situations) shouldn’t cause someone to lose their child. And it does because the industry and the desperation of these sorts of people drives it. You can dispute that until you are blue in the face but it doesn’t change the truth of it. The demand for adoption would be a lot less, like almost non existent if it wasn’t for certain people driving it and those adopting because they actually want to help a child for the child’s sake would be happy to adopt older children and from foster care, and not drive the infant adoption industry.
         Your Walmart analogy is plain dumb.

         • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:32 am |

           “The demand for adoption would be a lot less,”

           No it would not. A lot of people doing IVF would turn to infant adoption if the price dropped. AND the gay civil rights movement is coming at you like a freight train. Things have changed from even just 10 years ago. In the past people remained childless or married the opposite sex to have kids and later divorced. Now people use gamete donation or adopt.

           My Walmart example goes directly to my central point about supply arguments versus demand arguments.

           I have always found demand arguments unpersuasive, although I do listen to what people have to say, and will individually act ethically. HOWEVER, I have been around long enough to know that progressive movements who attempt to affect demand almost never achieve their goals. It’s that simple.

           This isn’t my first rodeo. If you think demand arguments work – good for you. From my experience they do not.

           I think attacking the circumstances and structures is what changes things for people. You need to affect supply to change adoption. That means alleviating the coercive circumstances that lead people to consider adoption. You need to stop it before it’s even a question.

           • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:49 am |

             Actually no, you need to be part of a society that doesn’t allow coercive practise in adoption. Stop putting this on me and accept some responsibility for being part of a society who marginalises women without support and put your words into action instead of preaching.
             Yes, I am well aware of ‘gays’ and the fact they look to adoption BUT again, this post wasn’t addressing that and for a particular reason.
             Sorry but infertility is currently the biggest factor in DIA. Facts alone and real life experience testify to that. You have missed the entire point to this thread and post. You really have. It isn’t about all the factors of the demands in adoption. It isn’t about all the coercion etc in the industry; Claudia has enough of those in her blog you can look up. But this one is not that. So please, EDUCATE yourself. I’m not asking that much really.

             • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 5:34 pm |

               “Stop putting this on me and accept some responsibility for being part of a society who marginalises women without support and put your words into action instead of preaching.”

               I have a track record of getting things done in this area.

               The problem is clearly economic justice for women and mothers. That’s just beyond obvious.

               There’s a reason women call or walk into an adoption clinic. You need to stop them from being desperate enough to call in the first place.

               That, and only that, will reduce the numbers of domestic adoption.

               The demand argument is unpersuasive. Besides, you are a tiny proportion of the population. You will be unable to reduce demand in any meaningful way through your rhetoric.

               There is no way to “prove” that argument.

               I suppose you can look at numbers: 14K domestic infant adoptions. Will that number stay the same, get bigger, or decrease.

               What will cause it to decrease? Well, a year of paid maternity leave and low cost child care funded by the state would make a big difference ibetcha.

               I don’t understand the venting w/ out political actions to change things for young mothers. What is the point?

10. admin | September 10, 2013 at 10:25 pm |

    Greg.. really I WAS not upset and I am still NOT upset. I am what I said.. I was disappointed and frustrated by not having the space on 140 characters to feel that I could explain myself as I wished. I needed over 26000 and we’re still NOT quite there yet! Which is fine.. I didn’t think we WOULD be yet, but at least here I have room!
    The level of understanding and sympathy is here, but no, the reality is that it will NOT be the same level as yours. I said that clearly. I CAN’T be.. it is not something that I have experienced, and there for I can only imagine and that often is not good enough. I do not think you are a bad guy and I DO commend you for the reading and the conversations and the ability to see things as far as you can. And I DO get what you are saying.. yes, understanding is key; and I have NO issue at all with recognition! I have said that before as well. I will not dare to deny the validation that it requires.

    What I have said here is how far I can go based on the ACTIONS that USE this as a defense for the behavior and only when it comes to adoption mythology.

    There is a line for me.

    And after that place, when my entitled meter goes off and I feel I have hit a wall, then I’m done. There are not many that can avoid that line for me. And it’s NOT just people that are infertile or adopters either! I get that way with God stuff, and pro life agendas, and politics, and violence and meanness and even stupidity. I hold myself to the same standards.

    Now there is also NOTHING that says that a person can return from that place where I hold them in contempt should they care even to go there! I have NO problem with anyone who can say .. wow.. yeah, I did that. I believed that… but yeah, I see now that its wrong and we have to do something about it! How can I JUDGE anyone for ever being in that place where they thought adoption was fine and dandy when i came from there myself? I am a self admitted Kool aide drinker . I was a believer! I don’t and I never will because that would be the most hypocritical. And gosh I do HATE that!

    Which is why I do engage..and I try.. but I am human..and Twitter is often my OMFG CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS venting place.. ( or here or FB) and I let fly.. because really Greg, that’s what I do. That’s what I am known to do. That’s my business. I do THAT.. I do this!

    And is it harsh? Yes.. it is. I know it is. We have been having these conversations about this for weeks now on Twitter and yes, I have been thinking about them. I think about many things a lot. I let them mull and I let myself feel the emotions and then stop thinking and let it rest and then re write in my head. And after a while, something usually says.. I need to say that. And then I do. And usually, it DOES need to be said.. and from the response on FB and Twitter.. it did NEED to be said, but it’s really NOT about you.

    Its also not about the great majority of people that I know. Its not about any ONE adoptive parent or any one infertile person or even anyone that I can personally think of! Not the people I know. Not the people who I know understand me. I can not worry about judgement for my words for then I am not writing from an honest place, I am writing for validation. I can be honest if I cannot trust and be free. I have to trust for me to say things freely. I wasn’t joking when I said I do not edit and I do not worry about offending. If I do offend anyone I know and who might think I did mean them, they are welcome to ask me to explain, but I trust that they know what I am attacking: the attitude, the belief.. it is something that we all know too well. Like a giant it sleeps out there..oozing its disdain for mothers..rotting the social attitude.

    A person.. one human.. I can have sympathy for… I can see their pain and feel sad on a personal level. This monster that calls itself adoption and feeds on THIS “poor infertile couple” lore, I cut off it’s head with vengeance! Perhaps that is the contradiction? Perhaps that is the blood spatter that you see?

    So I have sympathy to a point.. and then I do draw a line. Perhaps you don’t like where I have established it, but that’s what I got. I cannot try to change it to appease you. All I can do is explain it. After that, it just is my truth. In any case, I am very glad you got me thinking. I am glad that our conversations had me examining where it was. I am glad that I was able to write this. And so, to me, it is all a good thing. It was something that needed to be said.

    • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 8:33 am |

      Where I disagree with you is thinking you understand when to couldn’t possibly understand just as I couldn’t possibly understand where you are coming from. However, I recognize where you are coming from. I recognize what you have been through these last 25 years and the people you’ve encountered on the other side. I get what has made you who you are. I don’t expect my arguments to change you. The only thing I hope is that I’m able to do the same thing you have to me and that’s provide a different perspective.

      I’m not expecting you to change your platform but merely prove that societal attitudes and lack of recognizing how life altering infertility is impacting the demand for adoption (third party reproduction is another).

      Still I believe my comment on twitter how your situation was based on decisions you made in your life got to you and again I apologize for that.

      • 7rin | September 12, 2013 at 9:56 am |

        Um, Claudia’s not not recognized it. It’s what’s behind http://www.divinecaroline.com/life-etc/national-council-adoption-mothers-money-marketing-and-madness-part-1 parts one – three (unless there’s more pages created since that I don’t know about).

      • admin | September 12, 2013 at 3:14 pm |

        No.. I said I could understand as MUCH as I could. And defined some of my personal experiences. How is it that YOU can say that “you get where I am coming form” and NOT extend the same possibility to me to be able to “get where you are coming from”
        Yea, and I understand that infertility is life altering. AGAIN.. it is LIFE altering.. it SHOULD not be LIFE ALTERING for ANOTHER PERSON. Yes, it DOES impact adoption. The LIFE ALTERING pain from those who suffer from infertility is sometimes used as an excuse for bad entitled behavior and subsequently affects the demand for adoption because the agencies USE the life altering pain and market adoption as relief form it, hereby exploiting the life altering pain of those suffering from infertility.
        Yeah, Ok you go believe what you want to believe because obviously you have a little window where you can see the inside of my brain and understand me much better than I ever could. Yes, because its great to have you dismiss what I SAID are my feelings. And here, let me tell you how I feel now so you can tell me that you believe something else and you know better than I do,. right now; I am frustrated and annoyed.

        Killing me, smalls.. killing me!

        • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 6:04 pm |

          But how do we get a couple’s infertility from becoming life altering for other people (adoptees and birth/first parents)? How do we get it from becoming “bad entitled” behavior? How do we prevent it from being something that others can take advantage of? Again I am not looking for you to answer these questions but these are questions that need to be addressed. Also, it’s not something you and others in the adoption community are obligated to figure out. It’s not your problem directly. However, if you are looking to fix issues in adoption this is something that can help lessen the demand for domestic infant adoption.

          But saying people should just deal with it and that they should just provide a home for a child or donate their money and time to a charity does not address those questions. That’s like telling birth/first mothers they should just deal with it and have other children when they are ready. The people who tell birth/first mothers that aren’t getting it either.

          I apologize for frustrating you and making you feel dismissed. Welcome to my wife’s world! 🙂

          • admin | September 12, 2013 at 6:32 pm |

            Look.. my feelings and the feeling of other moms and adoptees have been dismissed for decades. They still are. So we’re in the same boat as your wife. I GET that I really really do! Really. Like 100 times really.. I see the similarities completely.
            This part:
            “But how do we get a couple’s infertility from becoming life altering for other people (adoptees and birth/first parents)? How do we get it from becoming “bad entitled” behavior? How do we prevent it from being something that others can take advantage of?”
            YES YES YES!!!. I WANT to KNOW HOW DO WE!!! Right now, this post.. it is calling people out on it. Is it the MOST effect way of stopping it? NO I will concede that. Was it a needed release for others form this side t be ABLE to say it and see it said: YES.
            Was it born out of the frustration from not knowing any other way to do so? Sure. There is understanding, there is sympathy, there is empathy, but then there is also ENABLING. Sometimes, I DO fear we can overdo on the other stuff and it does become enabling. Can we validate too much? Can we make excuses for others too much? Where is the point where a person has to be responsible for control their own feelings no matter what their cause because, if they go unchecked and are given free range, they do go and hurt another.
            Thsi might be a lousy analogy, but I am feeling pretty good off the grandmother one, so I’ll hit it again: Look at the person who had a horrible childhood and is hurt by that. They were failed, abused even, and because of that they do not have the skills to say, deal with frustration at work. So they get help. They talk to people who say ” yes, you have a right to be angry. Yes, your feelings are real and valid. Yes, you can be pissed, but NO.. you cannot throw your boss through a plate glass window when he corrects you even if that brings up your feelings of abuse.” There is a line, right? We can have understanding, but then at what point does it go too far? At what point, do other people have a right to say; No, knock it off. Get a grip and deal.
            I mean, I kind of feel that in some ways, and I will blame the industry and society overall more than the actual individuals facing IF, that we have used the “beauty” of adoption to let things go too far. We have to drawn that line as a society and said: Hey, you can’t throw a person through the glass/you cannot take another persons child”
            I mean, I can say.. waa! look at me. The adoption industry screwed me and I am pissed off. I have a right to be pissed off. So I am going to go bomb my agency! That’s NOT acceptable. I could also go and say, I will tell every adoptive parent I meet that they suck donkey butt, but I KNOW for a FACT that when people act like that; other people step in and say “No, that’s not fair and you should not do that!” ( and I agree) There is a line where understanding and sympathy ends and we have to call people out and point out that. And I get that maybe it won’t work for all, maybe that does not feel right for you; but I can tell you this.. I HAVE seen these things happen. There IS a collective unconsciousness or something. 10 years ago, when I said there is pain and loss in adoption I have EVERYONE telling me I am crazy and banning my ass from every site known; 7 years ago when we started saying “hey, please don’t call her a birthmother until AFTER she signs the papers” people scratched their heads. Now; pain and loss as a foundation is accepted and not hardly the same battle for understanding. Now OTHER APs tell each other about the “after she signs TRP” preferences. So if you tell me how another way, I’ll be glad to do it. I will be glad to say the gist of this post in kinder gentler terms as well, but I DO see value in saying it.

            • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 8:37 pm |

              Yes, I feel so much better that we are on the same page. I agree with a lot of that. How do we support but at the same time not enable? If you enable it defeats what you are trying to accomplish. The goal needs to be to help prevent people from crossing that line.

              I don’t want it this to be all about me but I think I have done some things over the last nine months that others can learn from. The first thing I did was back in January after my diagnosis and I fell into depression is that I went to therapy. For seven months I went weekly and watched myself grow. It was a painful process and I still have a lot of work to do. But I think I’ll be better able to answer these questions in time with more research and my own experiences. There is a book called the “Silent Sorority” written by a childless woman. I haven’t read it but I know others have and like it.

              The one thing I will say is that if a person is closed minded there is no way you will reach them no matter what your approach is. There are some PAPs that will just ignore you no matter what. That is unfortunate but it’s a reality, you won’t be able to get to 100% of the population. Those who have shut you out by trying censor you will never help.

          • cb | September 12, 2013 at 6:58 pm |

            Your main problem, Greg, is that you don’t accept other people’s empathy even when it is genuine. You have a passive-aggressiveness about your replies that can make people feel like they’ve been slapped in the face.

            “But how do we get a couple’s infertility from becoming life altering for other people (adoptees and birth/first parents)? How do we get it from becoming “bad entitled” behavior? How do we prevent it from being something that others can take advantage of? Again I am not looking for you to answer these questions but these are questions that need to be addressed. Also, it’s not something you and others in the adoption community are obligated to figure out. It’s not your problem directly. However, if you are looking to fix issues in adoption this is something that can help lessen the demand for domestic infant adoption.”

            They won’t be addressed because no-one wants them addressed. Helping IF couples become parents is a billion dollar industry – whether through IVF or through adoption – no-one in either industry is going to be wanting to help IF couples become comfortable about the possibility of not having children – that would be like cooking the golden goose.

            In fact, what does help a couple’s infertility from being “life altering for other people”, “bad entitled” behavior” or “something that others can take advantage of” is to put laws in place to prevent those things from happening – in effect saving the IF couple from themselves. In countries where adoption is about finding families for children rather than finding children for families, those familes that do adopt can often rest easier knowing that everything was done to prevent the family being separated. If one has an Adoption Industry that takes advantage of desperate people, whether IF or pregnant, one is going to end up with compromised situations. I’ve seen situations where the IF couple have gone to adopt and they actually try very hard to be “ethical” but then they fall at the last hurdle – in many cases, their agencies have enabled them and encouraged them to act unethically.

            So, it is APs themselves that have to stand up and say “Stop, I want to adopt ethically, yet I admit that my own issues may cause me to waver, and thus I want to make sure that there are laws in place to prevent save me from myself. I want the “ADULT” in the room (i.e. the AGENCY” to make sure that I behave and not stray off the road”.

            I believe US is too far gone when it comes to adoption, there is only going to be more pressure on all parties, not less.

            However, I personally believe that much adoption advertising and much adoption counselling are respectively breaking some sort of code of ethics in both advertising (eg false advertising) and social work (lack of bias) and there should be National Guidelines re both – that would at least be a good start.

            • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 8:47 pm |

              You don’t get it and probably never will because as I’ve told you before you are ChildFree by choice not childless by circumstance. This goes beyond adoption. You have donor conceived children out there who are lied to about their conception. Take away adoption watch a rise in embryo donation and a new set of children who suffer. Putting laws in place doesn’t address the issue because you still would have a group out there that is not being properly supported as they aren’t in Australia, the US and most countries in the world. Just because these issues aren’t addressed doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be. That’s what I don’t think you will ever get.

              • cb | September 12, 2013 at 11:00 pm |

                You know nothing about me, Greg, you keep making assumptions.

                “You don’t get it and probably never will because as I’ve told you before you are ChildFree by choice not childless by circumstance.”

                The ONLY time I mentioned re not having children is when you said people judged you and I said I understand the judgment. Yet you judge me. And admit it, that is what you feel judged by others because they often think you are “Childfree” and that irks you because you judge the childfree yourself.

                Btw you have no idea why I’m “childfree” because I’ve never said. You don’t even know for sure that I’m not childless by circumstance – as far as I know I’m not infertile but that doesn’t mean that I’m not childless by circumstance (eg relationships, finances etc).

                “Putting laws in place doesn’t address the issue because you still would have a group out there that is not being properly supported as they aren’t in Australia, the US and most countries in the world

                Actually, I agree with you that in every country of the world that those with IF aren’t properly supported – however, the laws do address the problems of unethical adoptions and thus “saving” people from themselves. I don’t mean that in a bad way – when it comes to emotional things, there are times that it is good that there are laws that prevent us doing things we might otherwise regret.

                What you fail to see though is that the problems re IF are a fertility issue not an adoption issue.

                • cb | September 12, 2013 at 11:45 pm |

                  Another thing. My abro is “Childfree” as you put it – i..e. he is not infertile.

                  However, he suffers from a mental illness which would make it difficult for him to be the best parent he could to any child. He really is childless by circumstance.

                  You are infertile by circumstance and that truly is a sad thing. However, you can’t really say you are childless by circumstance because there are options you refuse to take. There is a difference.

                  • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 8:15 am |

                    When I say childless by circumstance I mean that person or couple lacks the ability to produce a child. It’s not their decision to not have children.

                    In the case of you and your brother (sorry to hear about him) a decision was made not to try to have children for different reasons. It wasn’t a matter of your bodies not allowing you to conceive and give birth to a child.

                    Does that make sense? This is just my opinion on it.

                    • cb | September 13, 2013 at 5:32 pm |

                      When I say childless by circumstance I mean that person or couple lacks the ability to produce a child
                      Yes, I knew exactly what you meant. What I was trying to point out was that even if you are “infertile by circumstance”, you are “unable to procreate by circumstance”, does it follow that you therefore “childless by circumstance”.

                      When I pointed out that you refuse to consider certain options, eg fostering a child, adopting from foster care, that precludes you from being “CHILDLESS by circumstance” because you have chosen not to consider that option at all. Now I am NOT saying you should adopt from foster care or foster a child and I certainly don’t think anyone should be forced to do so. I do understand the difficulties in the foster care system and how difficult it is and certainly I can understand why people don’t.

                      However, there are people who don’t feel comfortable with doing the IVF/donor thing (because of problems their child might face), who don’t feel comfortable doing DIA (because they are concerned about the methods of counselling for expectant mothers), feel uncomfortable doing intrernational adoption (because of irregularities there too) but who still want to raise a child. They then turn to fostering a child or adopting older children from foster care. If they do decide to do that, are they still “childless by circumstance”? No, they then have a child so they are no longer CHILDLESS. However, they do remain “infertile by circumstance” and “unable to procreate by circumstance” which is something that will always be the case.

                      So, that is why I am saying that you can’t completely be called “childless by circumstance” if you won’t even consider the fostering/adoptiong from foster care option. Now, if you had tried via that method and it had been a total disaster, then I could understand where you are coming from but you won’t even consider it. So, though you do not have the choice to be able to begat a child, you do have the choice to be able to raise a child but you have chosen not to via that particular method. That is your right and you should never be forced to so. I’m just pointing out though that one can’t be considered “childless by circumstance” if they have chosen not to go via a particular route because of one’s own wishes.

                      Now, I have said to you before that when I’m older and able to afford to reduce hours at work, I would like to foster an older child (preferably a girl). I would want what is best for that child, not for me. So if she ended up going back to parents that loved her and had “worked their plan”, I would be happy for her (in fact, that would be my ideal) because it wouldn’t be about me but about her -. Not everyone is able to foster and I accept that. In fact, I might find that I’d be shocking at it. However, I’m prepared to at least consider it and do plan to undertake classes to find out more.

                      Does that still make me “Childfree” – because I want to wait until I actually have more time available to be able to be an effective foster parent? I am “Dogfree” for the same reason. I *could* get a dog and have it in my small flat and leave it alone all day but I don’t wish to do that. Because I’ve “chosen” to be dogfree at present, does that mean I can never be allowed to feel compassion for those who lose their dogs or for those who are unable to have dogs due to deadly allergies? Of course, having pets isn’t the same as having children but just pointing out that IF I do decide to foster, I want it to give it my all.

                    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 5:47 pm |

                      Question CB: When you say someone won’t consider becoming a foster parent or adopting from foster care are you saying that they won’t pursue it and give it a try or that they won’t research it enough to make a decision on whether or not they will pursue it?

                      The reason I ask is that I have researched becoming a Foster Parent and Adopting from Foster Care. I don’t believe it is something that I could do based upon the research I’ve done.

                • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 6:14 am |

                  Again you don’t get the fact that this goes beyond adoption. Adoption is just one thing infertility impacts. My point is how do we get to a point where it doesn’t? Even with your laws in Australia you still have couples going in other questionable ways to become parents. So is the problem really “solved”? I don’t think it has been solved.

                  • cb | September 13, 2013 at 5:38 pm |

                    Perhaps you need to start changing your thinking a bit re children and take heed of Kennedy’s famous speech.

                    To paraphrase:

                    “Ask not what a child can do for you—ask what you can do for a child.”

                    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 6:12 pm |

                      I don’t think I need to change my thinking at all because that is what my thinking is. It is why I always wanted to become a parent. But that ability has been taken away from my wife and I.

            • Myst | September 12, 2013 at 11:58 pm |

              Cb, you hit the nail on the head. I think he basically wants us to be okay with him and his wife adopting and so he isn’t seen as one of the bad guys. Not going to happen. And yeah, he wouldn’t know true empathy if it got up and kicked him in the balls.

              • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 5:36 am |

                If you put a gun to my head today and asked me whether we would pursue adoption the answer is no. Even if it was yes we d

              • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 5:37 am |

                If you put a gun to my head today and asked me whether we would pursue adoption the answer is no. Even if it was yes we don’t need anyone’s approval to do so.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:07 pm |

      Do you think the “gays” cause the pain of adoption because people are gay and that creates demand?

      Do you think gay people are entitled because they are gay?

      • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:38 am |

        Why going on about ‘gays’? You ‘gay’?

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:18 am |

          Why do you want to know?

          How is my sexual orientation relevant to you?

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:42 am |

            Because you keep bringing it up so obviously it is a sore point for you, especially since there was nothing about that in the post. You brought that I to it. And your questioning me about why I’m asking seems to suggest you are and are on the defence.

11. cb | September 10, 2013 at 11:18 pm |

    “The best example I can give is the idea of an “angry adoptee” who acts out with anger. Instead of just saying, “oh they’re just an angry adoptee who had a bad experience” shouldn’t we try to recognize what has caused this anger that led them to act out? Of course we should so that future adoptees aren’t acting out in anger. You don’t condone them acting out either, you try to address what lead to them acting out”

    First of all, I just want to point that one of the problems re talking about “angry adoptees” is that almost everyone misunderstands the “anger” of online adoptees. They assume they are angry at their adoptive parents and right then, they are often way off. I am an adoptee. I am angry but I have no issues with my APs, In fact, any anger I have is towards the Adoption Industry in the US and I am angry at the lack of rights that many adoptees have and, having been on forums for about 3 years, I am angry at the way adoptees are called “angry and bitter” often purely because they want a relationship with their bfamilies. Was I an “angry adoptee” three years ago? No, but I am now and I think any right-minded person, whether adoptee, birthmother or AP, should be angry at the state of the Adoption Industry in the US today.

    Secondly, Greg, you and I have exchanged many words (I also use “c”) and perhaps I can give you an insight into what I meant when I said:
    “one realises one is on a flogging to nothing because any attempts to empathise are dismissed with the attitude of “well, unless you are infertile, your empathy means nothing because you can never understand what I’m going through””.

    If you said to me, “C, I can see that there are probably aspects of being adopted that are difficult. Though I am not adopted, I have experienced such and such and I suspect that certain aspects of that help to understand just a little bit”, then I would say to you “You know, Greg, what you said about “such and such” does have some similarities to what I’m talking about” – I would accept that even though you may not be adopted, you are trying to use your own experience to understand.

    However, would you like it if I said “Well, experiencing such and such is absolutely nothing like being adopted, you’ll never know anything about what it’s like to be adopted so any attempt by you to even empathise is not worth anything”. That is what you keep doing with people that try to use their own experience to even empathise with you slightly. When I was originally trying to commiserate with you about your IF, I actually wasn’t using my “childfreeness” as being equivalent in any way to your pain, I was just trying to use certain aspects of my particular situation to try and see inside your situation and you just acted as if I was trying to compare being childfree with being childless which was not my original intent – further posts then kept getting twisted out of context.

    In general though, and away from you Greg, one problem with IF and adoption, is that often the IF story can overpower the adoption story and the adoptee can feel that they are not the most important aspect of the story.

    I think you mean well, Greg, but you do need to just step back and look at things from a different angle. Adoption should not be about IF. IF is merely a reason why people might consider adoption and thus be resources for providing a home for a child. When adoption does become about IF, it means that adoption’s main focus becomes about finding children for families and that is not what it should be about. It has been about finding children for families since the 1950s and other countries have seen the damage that has done and have adjusted their adoption policies so they are now about finding families for children – however, the US is the only country that still hasn’t recognised that.

    • 7rin | September 11, 2013 at 6:55 am |

      For yet more prrof of Greg’s rantings, see http://adoptionmania.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/wont-somebody-think-of-the-poor-entitled-infertiles-wail/

      • 7rin | September 11, 2013 at 6:56 am |

        Gah! Proof, not prrof. *facepalm*

    • Greg | September 11, 2013 at 9:10 am |

      You may not believe this but I agree with a lot of what you say. First let me say that I don’t believe in the term “angry” adoptees. The reason I don’t is that I believe that anger results from grief, pain and frustration. It’s justified. So instead of just saying adoptees are angry I think the attention needs to be on the why and address that.

      From the stories I’ve read from adoptees while the feelings of hurt aren’t a direct result of APs sometimes the APs make the situation worse by not supporting their children.

      My attitude isn’t that unless you are infertile you lack empathy. My attitude is if you claim you are empathetic yet continue to take shots at the infertile without clearly recognizing what leads them to act that way you aren’t empathetic. And again no one is obligated to have empathy.

      While there are losses involved in adoption and infertility I don’t believe they are exactly the same. I do think though there are a lot of misconceptions with both.

      I do agree that they shouldn’t be related but because adopting is used as an alternative form of parenting it is. This is where my belief the focus should be on the demand in adoption. Because regardless of whether its Foster Care or Domestic Infant those who are infertile who adopt do so to start a family not because they desire to provide a home for a child. If those people weren’t infertile then it’s unlikely they would be pursuing any type of adoption. If it wasn’t for my IF I wouldn’t be on thus site and would be unaware of anything going on in adoption. That’s just a reality.

      • cb | September 11, 2013 at 10:26 am |

        Every single other western country has people with IF and those countries changed their adoption laws regardless of the feelings of those with IF. That is, because they realised adoptees and first mothers had suffered, they realised that laws needed to be changed to make sure that pregnant women in crisis got the unbiased help they needed. The prevalence of IF was irrelevant to their decision.

        If things are going to change in the adoption industry, it has to be concentrated on the adoptee and the birthparents.

        The problem with your argument is that you don’t seem to realise that the Adoption Industry themselves is promoting that demand and they have the money to do so. In fact, you may even be a victim of that promotion.

        Even back in the 1950s, adoption needed to be marketed to prospective adoptive parents, not just pregnant women, and that marketing towards prospective adoptive parents is still just as strong.

        You are expecting the very people who are marketing adoption to the masses to be the same ones to reduce the demand in adoption – aint going to happen.

        • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:10 pm |

          what are you talking about? Are you talking about canada?

          wtf?

          Anyways, you all clearly ain’t going to convince one person suffering from infertility.

          Your approach reminds me of the radical right-wing anti-choice republicans talking about abortion. At one point a friend mentioned to me that “it makes me want to have an abortion.”

12. HannahSarah | September 11, 2013 at 9:25 am |

    As an IF person who has not been scared off of adoption by blogs such as yours (but who has chosen to glean enough information about it from what you say to ensure that my spouse and I do everything in our power to make it an ethical adoption-We will do it ethically, but we will STILL pursue it thankyouverymuch) I have to tip my hat to Greg for continuing to enter into dialogue with you on issues like adoption and infertility. I would have given up on someone like you a long time ago because you just don’t get it. All you are doing is burning bridges of possible support for your cause. I am someone who wants to have sympathy, empathy and understanding for birthmothers and adoptees, but I have a line too. I draw the line at what I have come to refer to as “fertilism-which this article and others is a textbook example of-attitudes that come from someone who is, in your own words “too fertile for my own good” who feels that she is entitled to judge the motives and steps that those who are not so fortunate to have such a natural privilege to exercise in our own lives. Someone who insisted that her own husband take the drastic step of becoming IF through a vasectomy-let me ask you, Ms So Fertile that it’s sickening-if you were so tired of your supernaturally attuned babymaking “skills”-and I use that term VERY loosely-why were YOU not the one to go under the knife? Why did you not choose to make yourself IF-you could have, you know? Why did you insist that your husband castrate himself if you see your fertility as the bane of your existence? Just saying.
    One more question before I quit-I will waste no more time with blogs like this and will stick to sources that present these issues without the fertilistic attitudes that you are so quick to espouse-so much so that your blog is less about helping natural mothers and adoptees and more about hurting those that you believe have hurt you. Here’s my question-and it is for you, Claudia and women who have shared your experience: How will you respond if your children reach childbearing age, want to be parents, and yet are diagnosed with IF. Or if they marry or begin a relationship with someone who is diagnosed with IF? How will you respond-will you respond to their pain and their efforts to become parents through alternate means with the love and support that a parent is SUPPOSED to give to their child, or will you scream at them about ethics and entitlement and shame them into a childfree life? Will you show them this article and let it stand for your view on their very real situation? How will you respond if/when IF has a human face-one that you once loved but that now stands for everything you have spent your life (and quit your job for) trying to make the world see as second class citizens who are not worthy of parenthood? Will you disown them if they choose to pursue adoption-especially if it is an adoption that does not have YOUR seal of approval-foster adoption or nothing? And don’t say it will never happen-karma can be nasty at times, and those of us who suffer from IF were once able to take our IF for granted until we were told otherwise. Perhaps your children and their spouses will stumble upon this blog post, find out your true feelings about people like them, and they will take the drastic step of disowning you. I do not wish IF on your children, I would just like you to think about how such a scenario might play out in your life if it came about-when your self-righteousness and sense of childish entitlement to say whatever you want comes back to haunt you. For your sake and the sake of others-GROW UP!!!!!

    • admin | September 11, 2013 at 2:34 pm |

      Hi Hannah,

      I commend Greg as well for the continued conversations. I will even go so far as to express my appreciation of your own efforts to learn about the ethics involved in adoption. Of course, I cannot pretend to control the choices you make in your own life and in the end, that is something that you will have to live with. If you choose to adopt from a domestic infant program, then you do at least knowing , I hope, what to avoid, how to not to unduly influence a mother to ensure that she has a truly informed choice. I can only hope that you share what you learned with others and hopefully, your agency so they will know that their true clients, YOU, expect more of them, demand more of them. Of course, I would rather see you forgo domestic infant programs completely, but I can only go so far and so what I do..but you are welcome in any case.

      As far as the rest of your comments, I will thank you again for giving me something to think about and I did; so fertilism, eh? I wanted to makes sure I understood completely the term, so of course, I took a hot minute and did some research. I found this blog that talks about somewhat basically.(http://ohbabywhereartthou.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html) and I got it. No issues here. And I can see the parallels, though the pieces that I did find on fertilism kind of missed the opportunity to compare if you ask me. I’m pulling a few lines from this piece (http://books.google.com/books?id=aSq5ouyOAVMC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=fertilism&source=bl&ots=h_NZ46EzX3&sig=P3zdB1xITdcEnodIaTIwdoNmxkA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kKgwUseCDcrayAG8g4GgBQ&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=fertilism&f=false)

      “There is a bias against the infertile that is reveled when we picture ourselves questioning the fertile in the same manner…..the fertile are not questioned about why they want to have children or why they don’t adopt a child..the desire to have children is rarely challenged unless the individual is having trouble reproducing. Society doesn’t ask fertile parents who are comfortable and confident with parent to adopt children who need homes. Is it fair then to expect the infertile to live up to an ethical standard which is not applied to the average fertile individual?”

      Yes, I could see this and would say that it is not, on the surface, fair or equal and could be quite annoying. However, I have to say that a fertile person, when young or unmarried and identified as a possible supplier for adoption.. then we DO get those same questions!!
      However, perhaps what you have failed to see.. and I will admit again that I know this was a harsh post and was bound to get some people upset and ruffled feathers as you have reacted so I won’t blame you at all for that reaction, .. I actually DO hold ANYONE and EVERYONE adopting to the same standards as I have particularly applied here.

      I know that plenty of people adopt because they actually think it is a good thing and it “helps” children. I know there is the whole “orphan movement” that feels they were called to adopt by God and then we get into all those weird bible/adoption parallels. I know people who have been fertile and choose to adopt because they have strong feelings about population or poverty etc. And then there are those that adopt because there is a child who needs them and they provide the means for that child to have a home. And again, I do apply the same standards to all of them. So I will have to respectfully refute your classification of “ism”. I don’t question your desire to have children at all. I do not question any loss or grief or pain or suffering, but welcome the opportunity to both understand and acknowledge it. I do not question a desire to parent, I question whether that entitles you to adopt via an unethical practice and to that I say no. I will continue to stand by that.
      Now as far as you other questions, I am happy to answer them. My husband had the procedure done for various reasons. On; it is much less evasive for men and also less costly, so there was simply logic and logistics applied. There is also less recovery time etc. The other reason was because we determined that I had “done” my part of the equation, so to speak. I spent 18 months carrying OUR two children, I breast fed them for 2 years, I went through the hours of labor and childbirth, and we do try to be as equal parents as possible, so it was “his turn”.

      And finally.. yes, your last question did give me some pause to think. I do agree that Karma and the God’s do play a mean game of twist of fate! So what if?
      Of course, I could just brush it off and say that I have taught my children better and they would never sink so low as to desire to inflict the pain and loss on another. And partly, some of that IS true and even my 12 year old is already having conversations about adoption and is comfortable discussing the realities of her loss and experience in her own peer groups, but I also know that children are individuals as well, so things can change when faced with different realities as presented through life. And you are right in a sense, I have been more concerned about warning my children of an assumed heredity of OVERT fertility, rather than thinking that they very well could marry someone IF and become the 1 in 10 and that spouse might very well NOT have the knowledge of adoption ingrained. Of course, I do not hide anything that I write or believe in from my children yet.. so the fear of them “stumbling” is not realistic. I talk about these things with them and they already know how I feel.. so I would also tend to think that they , should one of them marry an naturally entitled feeling person who happened to be IF and wanted to buy a baby at all costs, I really don’t think they would go for it and would enlist my assistance. Ah, but perhaps I give too much credit to my mothering skills!

      Now I can say that these thoughts of EGADS someone close in my life desiring to adopt has crossed both my mind and reality before! And I would therefore assume that I would do what I have done in any of the other times that I have been confronted with such a reality (and like many other mothers who relinquished, and adoptees, have also done when faced by the same situation) we try to educate. I would steer them towards foster care while discussing the ethical implications domestic adoption. And I will even face a great personal nightmare.. what do I DO when someone I know adopts without my approval? Well.. dare I say, I stand my words and my truth, but I also follow my own advice; I deal. I adapt. I am not going to pretend to be someone I am not, but I am also not going to force my will on those I cannot control.
      Of course, I also have a life attitude that I try to apply at all times: I am not going to worry about something that might very well not happen in the feature so if it does come to pass, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. Worry about something I cannot control is wasted energy! Who knows exactly where we will all be in that time anyway. If we are playing fantasy games, then I can say in ten years I hope to see the current infant adoption as practices in this country completely changed anyway, so it will be different anyway! And THAT is something I can try to do, and so I will and do even if I managed to piss you off in the mean time!
      Speaking of, you do know that I am not always such a snarky bitch? I don’t know if you have read much around here, but if you can bare with me just a tiny bit more, I do like to offer you this personal manifesto that is one of my favs: http://www.adoptionbirthmothers.com/its-not-about-you-but-it-is-2/

      Anyhow, I feel it would be fruitless to apologize for getting your dander up since that IS kind of the purpose of the piece to a degree, but it wasn’t about a desire to HURT others. It was a desire to say, on behalf of us who HAVE BEEN HURT by such attitudes, what we have been all wanting to say. So, not to end on a disagreeing note, I think you missed the mark there. Saying this, loudly, harshly does help others, just not, I am sorry, you.

      • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 2:07 pm |

        One comment I have is that you shouldn’t steer someone towards Foster Care. Educating them on domestic infant adoption is fine but steering them towards adopting from Foster Care is not something that is your place to do.

        • admin | September 12, 2013 at 2:58 pm |

          Why not?
          And not to be a dick or anything, but says who?
          If a person WANTS to adopt, then saying that adopting through Foster Care is at least ( somewhat) knowing that you are providing a home for a child who NEEDS one as opposed to breaking up a family for the profits of the adoption industry is honest and truthful.

          • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 3:24 pm |

            No one should be steered to do anything especially if its something they haven’t done themselves. Educating is one thing but it needs to be up to the person or couple to steer themselves in their own direction.

            In addition, if a person or couple wants to adopt because they want to start a family does it really matter if they are adopting from Foster Care when insecurities from infertility could impact their parenting?

            Also don’t think that Foster Care is this clean ethical system there still could be ethics issues involved in adopting from Foster Care. Bottom line Adoptive Parents take risks of ethics violations no matter where they adopt from (doesn’t make them heroes either).

            • cb | September 12, 2013 at 7:07 pm |

              I think when people are telling you to “adopt from foster care”, they are just trying to say “adopt a child that needs a home” rather than adopt through a system like DIA where one can never really be exactly sure what pressures were placed on the expectant mother (if you have read all of Claud’s feature posts, you will understand the various types of direct “counselling” that takes place to “reform the thinking” of a pregnant woman). I am not saying every first mother has been coerced – however, often the boundaries are so blurred and compromised – who can actually tell?

              Certainly, the foster care system needs to be improved. No-one is denying that.

              • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 9:29 am |

                But if their intention in pursuing adoption is to start a family rather than help a child in need is it in the best interests of a child they could adopt to have them adopt that child? I would argue that it isn’t. The same insecurities that cause them to tell the adoptee they should be grateful for their parents and ignore their hurt for adoption will still be exhibited.

                I’ve seen many people in the “Baby Veronica” case say the Capos should just adopt a child who needs a home. When I press them about whether they trust the Capos to adopt any child based upon the behaviors they have exhibited in this case they change their tune. They come back and say they don’t believe these people should adopt any child.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:14 pm |

        “a harsh post and was bound to get some people upset and ruffled feathers as you have reacted so I won’t blame you at all for that reaction”

        It’s not about whether you hurt somebody’s feelings.

        You are trying (I assume?) to conduct a political movement. The question is how good is your rhetoric? Did you persuade anyone?

        Are you only preaching to the choir? Or can you make political alliances to affect social change? Can you convince with your writing? How good are your arguments?

        Insults and hurt feelings are easy. A few well-chosen words aimed at a vulnerable person can cause hurt feelings. But persuasion is difficult.

        Persuasion – the art of winning arguments.

        Hurting feeling ain’t a won argument. It’s just hurt feelings.

        • admin | September 16, 2013 at 12:37 pm |

          Reading comprehension is defined as the level of understanding of a message. This understanding comes from the interaction between the words that are written and how they trigger knowledge outside the message. I haven’t finished going though the over 150 new comments since yesterday, but I have a feeling over half are form you Poll saying the same thing over and over again and my response is going to be the same as well. I hear what you are saying and I don’t disagree about how to make change happen ( though you do not understand the battle quite as well as you think you do) .. and I often apply the same tools, BUT NOT FOR THIS POST.

          Please apply those reading comprehension skills NOW:

          IT WAS A RANT; it was NOT meant for a FEMINIST argument. There are BETTER posts for you to read should you CHOOSE to. This was a RANT. Rinse, repeat. and again until you get that. K?

    • 7rin | September 11, 2013 at 2:52 pm |

      If an OBC is in any way forged/faked/sealed & superseded, then that adoption is NOT “ethical”. Thus, since you’re blathering on that *your* adoption’ll be ethical, that means you ain’t gonna be adopting because with adoption comes falsified BCs.

      Also, I couldn’t give two hoots if my Daughter can’t have kids (sincerely hope she won’t ’cause this world is no place to bring a kid into), that still won’t ENTITLE her to force SOMEONE ELSE’S CHILD to live a life of legalised lies.

    • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 8:11 am |

      Hannah,

      I appreciate you speaking up for me I really do. But one thing that you should know regardless of whether Claudia or anyone in the adoption community supports my or anyone in the infertility causes, I will always support their cause. I wish them the best and hope that one day that her hard work results in all adoptees having access to their OBCs and she is able to influence other policy changes.

      You do bring up a good question about how would people who lack empathy react if their own children end up going through infertility. Will they tell them to “just deal with it”? Will they judge them for going through IVF or using donor gametes? If the answer is anything other than they don’t know they are full of shit. Because the reality is until it impacts you there is no way of knowing how you will react.

      The reason I come here and engage with others in the adoptive community is to learn. I believe I am doing what anyone in my situation would do. While I appreciate the kind words I don’t feel I should be commended for doing something I’m supposed to do.

    • Anonymous | September 13, 2013 at 9:25 am |

      Oh please. Do let me take this one.
      As a natural mom who didn’t tell my raised daughter about my forced relinquishment, I supported her through 5 years of IVF and failed placements. I did what any parent would do – I listened to her cry, sympathized as best I could, and kept my damn mouth shut because what another person does is none of my business. I now have a grandaughter through adoption whom I love with all my heart. I have tried to be as supportive as I possibly can be. BUT, let me tell you what happened when I told my daughter upon reunion with my son (I had never told her about it because I was so ashamed but of course had to when I reunited). This was well after all the problems she had, so while she was going through all of that, she didn’t know. The first thing out of her mouth after me telling her I was threatened with homelessness and my only other option was my becoming a ward of the state (and consequently, my son, too) was “you didn’t give up – you made an adoption plan.” WTF? What kind of “plan” is that. All I’ve heard from HER is “that’s not what really happened, and anyway, if it did, they don’t do it like that anymore.” NO sympathy. NO “gee, Mom, I’m sorry that happened to you.” She HATES it when my son and I are together. She hates the giggles, hugs and stupid jokes. She hates it that he calls me Mom. Because, to her, I’m just a “birth”mother. She has never acknowledged that she lost a brother. She can’t. And, what, Miss Hannah, am I supposed to do when my beloved grandaughter realizes that I am a “birth” mother like her real mother? Do you think I will be able to actually tell my story to her, or will I have to lie to please her parents? What will she think of me? If I tell her I was forced, she might think her mother was forced. No matter what I say, I think that relationship will be tarnished, too.

      I’m sorry for your problems, but you just crossed a line.
      I am living the exact situation you described. But let me ask you – how will YOU feel when your adopted child grows up and has a better relationship with his or her birth family than with his or her adoptive family? How would you feel when you find out your adult child is an alcoholic because they couldn’t cope with the impossible demands put on them by the aparents? Or that he was mentally abused? Or that he was put in a far worse situation than he ever would have been had he stayed with you? You can’t answer that, can you? Ok, then, STFU.

      So Miss know it all – there’s your answer. Suck on it.

      • admin | September 13, 2013 at 12:10 pm |

        Oh you SO get this one!! For the win.. or since it is adoption, for the lose!

        So the mythology to protect you own child leaves you completely screwed…. Made an adoption plan my ass. I am so sorry!!

        • Anonymous | September 13, 2013 at 6:16 pm |

          Yeah, loser is right.

          And why is it that Greg never has a reply when the questions get Tough? Neither him or Hannah care to comment on my post. Interesting. I’ve seen Greg totally ignore the tough questions about adoption before. He. Just. Isn’t. Interested. Let’s remember – it’s supposed to be about the child. Sadly, it isn’t.

          • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 6:38 pm |

            The only thing I can reply is that I’m sorry. Reading your story was very depressing. You deserved better support than what you received. I think the least I can do is address your questions:

            “how will YOU feel when your adopted child grows up and has a better relationship with his or her birth family than with his or her adoptive family?”

            It would depend why. If it’s a matter of that they relate to their birth family more so than us, it wouldn’t bother me. But if it was because something we did, I would feel very guilty and hurt that we pushed this child away from us.

            “How would you feel when you find out your adult child is an alcoholic because they couldn’t cope with the impossible demands put on them by the aparents? Or that he was mentally abused?”

            I would have a difficult time living with myself. It ties into some of the fears I have about becoming an adoptive parent and why I am unsure of whether we will pursue adoption. But that’s just me, I know there are others who have taken that risk, and I don’t judge them for it.

            • Anonymous | September 13, 2013 at 7:09 pm |

              Unfortunately, my story is like a million others. But, I was made to pay then, I’m being made to pay now, and I feel I will be made to pay in the future. This is what adoption does. This is how it rolls a lot of the time. I don’t judge people for taking a risk. But I do judge them for knowing there are problems and, like the smoker who insists they won’t get lung cancer, saying their child won’t hurt because we will just love them enough.

              So, no, I don’t know specifically what IF feels like – But I do know what it feels like to watch the adult child taken from you in complete and utter despair over what happened. I know what it feels like to know that I am looked down on – then and now – by my own family. I know what infertility does to people. They adopt babies and do everything they can to make that child be “like them” – but really, what else could they do? They have no frame of reference and neither does the child, the teenager, the adult. They are foreigners to each other. So, if you are in pain, I’m sorry. I got a boatload of people in pain over ONE adoption. And it ain’t fun. Quite literally, it has almost destroyed my family. Yes, I got my son back, but I pretty much lost everybody else, and all because of adoption.

              • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 7:52 pm |

                I hope that your daughter is able to realize how much you are hurting and be there for you. I hope that your son is able to work through his troubles and get the help he needs. I hope that you get the support you deserve.

                I thank you for sharing and wish nothing but the best for you and your family.

                • Anonymous | September 13, 2013 at 8:11 pm |

                  Please take the story to heart. I don’t want to see another child, adult, first family or adoptive parent (for that matter), go through what I have seen. You have to think long term, and I know that’s really hard to do when people think if they can just have a baby, everything will be great. I have heard far more stories like mine than the “good” stories.

                  Peace to you.

              • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:17 pm |

                “I know what infertility does to people.”

                They become WITCHES KILL HER KILL HER KILL HER

                DUNK HER IN THE WATER IF SHE FLOATS KILL ‘ER HANG HER HIGH!!!!

                • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:28 am |

                  Yes, actually they do become witches, bitches and outright evil cows who use their pain to destroy families. But no, I am not saying to kill them. I am telling them to stop using their pain to screw others over. You on the other hand are just being infantile and not trying to understand or appreciate what is actually being said and are only picking on bits in order to attack people. You have not tried to find out the underlying message here. And as such, you are acting like a troll.

                  • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:12 am |

                    Well, the original post was trolling, so the results fit.

                    Maybe, one day, people on this blog will stop scapegoating people (which is easy) and do something to help, like volunteer for a progressive group that advocates for paid maternity leave or health care for pregnant women.

                    Or you could even fundraise to support a local clinic that would support low-income pregnant women.

                    I’m not a newby to progressive causes and volunteer work. It’s easy to scapegoat on a blog.

                    But the rubber hits the road when you see who is willing to volunteer on weekends to get things done & help people.

                    Doing real things to prevent coercive situations for women. That’s what matters. Not name calling on a blog.

                    And scapegoating “teh infertiles” does shit all to help anyone in need.

                    • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:48 am |

                      So because you are involved in some ‘progressive causes’ that makes you knowledgeable on all issues? From what you have said here, you are wholly ignorant to all issues adoption and particularly infant adoption. There is a background to this post which you didn’t bother to find out because you didn’t really care to. You just jumped in and went off with a clear aim to attack.
                      And yes, actually I have been involved in preventing coercion in my country for 15 odd years so don’t bother trying to come at me with that one. Again, you have NO CLUE of who or what you are dealing with. So thanks but no thanks. Your ‘advice’ is unnecessary.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 5:46 pm |

        You have a daughter with serious sibling issues.

        Why is Greg your enemy? He was essentially saying — easy to judge until it happens to you or one of yours. As we can see with all of the Republican politicians who changed their mind when they discovered that their own kid was gay — it is much easier to judge until it happens to you.

        Clearly this is about family emotional dynamics — which, obviously, has nothing to do with him.

        Also – from what I read – Greg doesn’t want to adopt. Am I wrong about this? He is trying to make up his mind, but is pretty sure he isn’t interested.

        He’s also supports your political issues? Yes? or do I not understand?

        What do you get out of alienating him politically? I don’t get it at all. I am guessing this is happening because it’s about emotional projection and working through emotional trauma, and not about political or social movements or organizing.

        • Anonymous | September 14, 2013 at 6:14 pm |

          Alienating him politically? What the hell are you talking about? Greg and I, I feel, actually came to a place where we respected each others thoughts and feelings. Sounds like you are getting in the middle of a conversation and interjecting your thoughts without following the post. Whatever.

          • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:19 pm |

            I mean he agrees with you all and supports your political position, and you all are treating him like shit.

            At least that’s what I’m seeing in this comment thread.

            • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:25 am |

              Well you ain’t reading right. He agrees partially where it suits him and his beloved ‘infertiles’ don’t have to take accountability for their own pain.

              • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:07 am |

                ok. haven’t followed the infighting.

              • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 7:24 am |

                Wait are you saying that I’m saying that infertiles shouldn’t be accountable for their pain? Because if you are that couldn’t be further from the truth. I believe they should be accountable but there are things that need to change in society that can help support them. Just as expectant mothers with unplanned pregnancies need to be accountable for their actions yet at the same time require more support (different type of support though).

                • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:20 pm |

                  I don’t know who you are responding to but to summarize my position:

                  People need to act ethically. I don’t use the word “infertiles” except sarcastically. It’s a dehumanizing word. The great majority of people who are diagnosed with a condition of infertility do not adopt.

                  Anyone who is involved in adoption has a responsibility to act ethically. Some forms of adoption are not ethical.

                  A medical condition is obviously not an excuse to act unethically. Likewise, others should not treat people with medical disabilities in an unequal way — good or bad. It’s not an excuse to treat people differently.

                  You should judge people on their ACTIONS not their medical conditions or physical disabilities. You know – all Martin Luther King. And, while I’m at it — you also shouldn’t treat people differently according to skin colour or sexual orientation or national origin.

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:33 am |

            Yes anon, exactly.

        • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 9:48 am |

          I’m unsure of whether my wife and I will pursue DIA. I lean towards us not pursuing it but that doesn’t mean we won’t. It’s up in the air with no guarantees either way. But I don’t need anyone’s support or approval for whatever decision we make.

13. Lucreza Borgia | September 11, 2013 at 1:22 pm |

    A friend of mine who is gay is looking to start a family. It’s sad to see him fall into the pro-adoption rhetoric that is used towards infertile people by the adoption industry. He refuses to see how just about any domestic infant adoption is unethical.

14. Rina | September 11, 2013 at 5:45 pm |

    Claudia I have the utmost respect for you I really do. Having said that please don’t lump all infertile people together. As you know I lost my son to adoption years ago. I then went through secondary infertility. My husband and I struggled for 5 years before a miracle iui (fertility procedure) got us our beautiful daughter. I’m part of a huge online community of women are going all out to have a baby. Out of all the women who have had failed procedures only a very tiny percent have went the adoption route. I personally think its disgusting infant adoption makes my blood boil. During the 5 years of tears, the black and blue marks from enduring needles, shots poking and prodding. Spending almost all of our savings at a shot of having a baby never once did I even entertain the notion of adoption. NEVER. Just because we have lost the ability to give life doesn’t mean we are going up destroy someone else’s.

    • admin | September 11, 2013 at 7:15 pm |

      I promise.. no LUMPING! Really, I would much rather see improvements in fertility procedures and in insurance coverage so that too did not use up all your savings and the possible “need” for adoption would be eliminated that way! Hence, where I have drawn the line….

      • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 8:48 am |

        But you have to recognize that there isn’t a cure for everything. In my case there really isn’t. I take that back, I could have made the decision to have a biopsy done to see if there are any sperm in my boys. However, I decided against it for two reasons: one there has never been a reported case of any sperm being found in men with my microdeletions and second more importantly even if they found something I would pass along this condition to any male offspring. As much as I want to become a dad of a son it would be selfish for me to go through that. It’s something I couldn’t live with knowing my selfish desire to parent resulted in my son not being able to have children. There are those who would do that and I don’t judge them for it. Infertility really fucks with your head and emotions. It can change a positive upbeat person into a deep depression.

        More importantly than the science of infertility I think more is needed in the emotional support department.

        • admin | September 12, 2013 at 3:02 pm |

          Didn’t say there was a cure for everything.. I said I would rather see people have more options. improvements and better insurance coverage so CHOICES were more realistic and adoption was not something even on the table.
          Greg, honestly.. do you TRY to read into every post and find SOMETHING to fault? I mean, I am use to my 12 year needing to have the last word, but.. geesh! Is there a point when *I can get you *enough* that I don’t get corrected on something everything.. Coz to be honest, that’s what I feel like right now.

          • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 5:51 pm |

            I’m sorry that is not my intention. I guess what I was trying to get it is how do we address the entire problem? To me science and funding treatments only puts a band aid on the problem and doesn’t address the big picture. Because of the fact that there are so many things in our environment we are exposed to infertility is likely to increase in the future. So how do we change society attitudes? I am not asking you to figure this out either or have the answers but just pointing out these are questions that need to be figured out.

            This not only impact adoption but as you are well aware it impacts third party reproduction and children conceived from donor gametes as well.

            • 7rin | September 13, 2013 at 2:08 am |

              A good start’d be to stop denigrating teen parents.

              • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 5:40 am |

                But that is just one party of people it’s impacting what about the donor conceived c

    • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 8:40 am |

      Rina,

      My wife and I have decided not to pursue any infertility treatments for multiple reasons that I won’t get into. As hard as its been these last 9 months, I couldn’t imagine what it’s like to go through five years of fertility treatments. While I am sure that the birth of your daughter brought you a lot of joy, I am guessing the wounds of infertility and adoption for that matter are still with you.

      I wish you the best of luck.

15. cyndi | September 11, 2013 at 5:50 pm |

    just a point, fees for domestic baby no matter the race are exactly the same at some agencies.

16. Claudette Trahan-Garman | September 12, 2013 at 5:01 am |

    Greg,
    I really to have to give you props for coming in here and at least educating yourself. I respect you for doing that. I don’t think that many people in your position would actually take the time and listen….I am “assuming” that your listening because you follow and answer. I am sorry about your fertility issues. I have stated before that I also have family and friends that have struggled, and there has been times where I have just had to keep my mouth shut (trust me, it’s not good nor healthy), because of other people in my life’s decisions that have went against totally what I believe in. I just want you to understand something, and please, I know that it may go in one ear and out the other, but I just want to try and help you understand somethings.
    First of all, I am not adopted. I am the biological sister, that lost 40 years of a relationship with a woman, that is my sister, to adoption. Without taking up this whole thread, I didn’t know about my sister until 2010, and I fought the courts like hell to find her, which I did. But, in reality although we are in reunion…do you have any idea to know what it’s like to have a person standing before you, that you should be sharing holiday’s with, birthday’s??? This woman is my SISTER!! My children and her children are cousins! We have lost 40 years of our life that can never be made up! Our young children will never have the relationship that is so rightfully theirs! And, I would like to make this clear that it took me awhile to come to terms with our shared mother. At the same time, I NOW recognize and also understand how and why adoption “fucked” me up as a child and I never knew it until the age of 40. You see, I was born 2 years after my sister when my mom married my father. As my mother suffered her pain, I went along with it as a child. Adoption not only robbed me of my sister, it robbed me of my childhood! I beg you to listen and try to understand a different perspective..
    Now as I am in reunion, adoption is robbing 4 little young ladies and a young man! They are also the collateral damage of adoption! My daughter whom is now 16, fights like hell to educate her peers on the effects of adoption! She even made a choice that could have potentially damaged her high school record, when she refused to debate adoption, but instead stood up and told the horror’s that have effected her and how she stands for preserving the family and also going out and saving her money to help pregnant girls, women, that may not have the means now, but not to ever give up! My 11 year old daughter has had to go to therapy over all of this! She doesn’t understand why her cousin can’t come and play, and she still cries when she see’s a picture of my sister, and doesn’t understand why the person that she is supposed to call Aunt, in the perfect world, looks just like her Grandma, is her Grandma’s daughter (in a child’s eyes) but has never met her Grandma or even the 8 times that I have had my mother intubated because she is extremely ill, never went to see her in the hospital??? My precious 6 year old just wants to go and hug my sister when she see’s her, and I have to stop her because I know that isn’t what my sister wants!!!! Please, I know as a human being that you must understand and see how much deeper that this goes!!!
    Again, I am not attacking you. I just really want you to understand how damaging things really are.

    • Greg | September 12, 2013 at 9:07 am |

      Claudette,

      The best thing you can do when encountering someone going through IF is just tell them you are sorry to hear it and ask if there is anything you can do for them. It sound like that is your approach and I applaud you for doing something that few do. The worst thing you can do is judge and offer advice on something that you have no experience with. Those who say relax and you’ll get pregnant or I have a friend who went through it and this worked or that they adopted just downplays the pain of it.

      Regarding your story, I’ve read similar stories from siblings of children who were adopted. What you went through and are still going through makes sense. I recognize that even though I could never understand it fully (just as you could never understand what its like to go through IF). I don’t take your comment as an attack at all. You were just sharing your experience and I appreciate that. I am sorry that you did and still are going through that pain.

17. TrulyWonderfulPeep | September 12, 2013 at 8:52 am |

    This post really hits home for me.

    I endured my son’s adopters sob stories of how “painful” their supposed infertility was (they ended up having their own son three years after they conned and manipulated me out of mine.) I recall my son’s prospective adoptive mother recanting how “angry” she was that she couldn’t get pregnant when everyone else could “so easily”. That “anger” never went away. She simply directed at the mother of the child she ended up coveting, me, and she always will.

    They turned on me only a few years after adopting my son, shutting me out and not allowing any information on the welfare of my own child. They promised otherwise, until he was 18. 11 long years went by before I was able to locate and know if if my child was even dead or alive. I received no apologies, no hello, nothing. I deserved it. I deserved it because some stranger was not able to get pregnant for a couple years of her life. I deserved it and by gawd, I was going to PAY for her temporary infertility.

    I am still “paying” for it. They have brainwashed my child into a shell of a human being with no ability to think for himself. They managed to sabotage our reunion, making sure they reiterated to him that I was “satan” and “evil”, because I no longer subscribed to their bogus religion; you know, the “good Christians” who believed that I was supposed to suffer while they gained.

    No one’s infertility was ever my problem. I was not supposed to pay for someone else’s temporary infertility for the rest of my life. My son’s grandparent’s and his other relative’s weren’t either. Selfish and narcissistic don’t even begin to describe how these people have behaved all of these years. I will never forgive myself for trusting them and hate that I allowed these people into my life forever. They had no business in it and no business adopting anyone’s child.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:23 pm |

      “I deserved it and by gawd, I was going to PAY for her temporary infertility.”

      People are not mean or unethical because of a medical disease. People are who they are. A disease does not change character.

      • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:43 am |

        Actually, I have seen first hand what infertility does to someone’s state of mind. It DOES change them and unless they fight it, I have seen that turn ugly. Not to mention the things I have seen online come out of people who are infertile about those who are fertile. You think this comment section is ugly. You ain’t seen nothing. And anti-feminist? Ha! Yeah, you don’t know much really.

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 3:05 am |

          Any trauma can damage people mentally.

          It appears that relinquishing children hurts people emotionally and mentally.

          Some of these comments in this thread read as disordered and a bit deranged.

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:50 am |

            Again, because you are unaware of the history. It helps to educate yourself on all back stories before jumping in.

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:37 am |

            Lol, and um, how do people lose their child to adoption? Again, some with infertility who do not take responsibility for their pain and expect others to take it for them. This post and subsequent comments is about a particular group of infertiles, not all. But hey, don’t educate yourself and learn anything will you. So much easier just to jump right in and go off your nut like an imbecile, hey?

18. J.L. | September 13, 2013 at 1:06 am |

    I not only don’t but could never have sympathy for an infertile because being able to have life created from ones self is not a necessity to life. It’s a privilege one gets, to be entrusted with a human being from their self, and knowing a person is made from you is truly amazing, it’s just not the best thing in this world nor a must in order to feel whole or in keeping with the rest of society.

    It’s a fact that through various happenstances children become in need of care taking by other NON parents, since, *and I can’t seem to stress it enough since so many people continue to remain uneducated* parents are and can only be biological. A parent is a noun, and that’s it. You don’t parent as in “rear” a child, if you parent a child it means you are one of the two people responsible for a new human being being created from! Parenting doesn’t mean “raising”, children, it means producing children! So knowing there already is and will continue to be, children in need of others to take care of them, if a person is unable to produce their own children, if their desire is not selfish, meaning it’s what it should be about, taking care of a child, then they’d seek out however many children already in this world and in need, that they can handle, to take care of!

    Infertile people who are all woe is me, who feel stricken with a burdensome painful affliction, have huge egos that need to be broken, they need to be humbled, to attain selfless egos! It is because they are so selfish that they become so grieved. Because it’s not about them getting to have a child, as they’d like to put out there, (since they could seek out and take in and care for, children already in this world in need) it’s that they aren’t producing something from their self, to feed their ego “look what I made, look at me, me me me”. They don’t see their child as a new unique individual first and foremost as they should, they see *their* child as an extension of their self. It’s the same reason why there are men out there who are all about siring as many children as possible often with as many women as possible, (that is what having multiple wives was all about back in the day. It aint cause God ordains it) it’s because it feeds their ego because they see it as spreading their selves around, the more of them passed on into this world, through their offspring, the more powerful they feel.

    And the truth is, our pain, those of us who’ve been denied our own – born from and birthed from us – children, because through whatever circumstances, others got them to take care of over us, DOES trump the pain of infertiles, both because their pain is invalid, and because grieving over a non existent child you don’t have, doesn’t in any way compare to grieving the existing child one has had that’s been removed from them, and is kept from them, and making it even worse, has been stripped outwardly of all personal connection to us, denied they are even ours!

    Infertiles fantasize about offspring that don’t exist, we who’ve actually had our own children that we’ve been robbed of in every sense of the world, are told we’re delusional for even thinking of our children as ours. We’re the ones told we’re crazy for thinking our children are ours, for thinking about them, being concerned for them, wanting to take care of them, missing them, longing for them, loving them! While you infertiles who don’t even have a living breathing child created from you, who fantasize about your non existent children, who create baby rooms for your non existent children, who buy stuff for your non existent children, who come up with names for your non existent children, are comforted because you cry for a NON EXISTENT *FANTASY*! You’re not told you’re crazy, you’re coddled, you’re commiserated with, you’re treated as though you’ve been dealt an unfair hand when it comes to fertility, and it’s a great injustice to you, and you’re given validation for your self imposed invalid grief, and your selfish WANT, no need, for a child, to POSSESS, to IMPRINT upon, your SELF, to feel like you are extending YOURSELF through another human being, and carrying YOURSELF on in this world so that after you kick the bucket, you feel a piece of you will live on.

    HUMILITY, is what you should seek first, followed by genuine love, and quite possibly at the same time as counseling, so that you will realize the different between your selfish desire, and a selfless act, the former being about feeding your ego, the latter being about caring for others!

    • admin | September 13, 2013 at 12:12 pm |

      This:

      ” While you infertiles who don’t even have a living breathing child created from you, who fantasize about your non existent children, who create baby rooms for your non existent children, who buy stuff for your non existent children, who come up with names for your non existent children, are comforted because you cry for a NON EXISTENT *FANTASY*! You’re not told you’re crazy, you’re coddled, you’re commiserated with, you’re treated as though you’ve been dealt an unfair hand when it comes to fertility, and it’s a great injustice to you, and you’re given validation for your self imposed invalid grief, and your selfish WANT, no need, for a child, to POSSESS, to IMPRINT upon, your SELF, to feel like you are extending YOURSELF through another human being, and carrying YOURSELF on in this world so that after you kick the bucket, you feel a piece of you will live on.”

      I adore.Thank you!

      • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 12:44 pm |

        And this is why I call bullshit Claudia when you say you have empathy for the infertile. I don’t believe it for a second. You aren’t obligated to have empathy but don’t say you do when you don’t.

        • admin | September 13, 2013 at 6:15 pm |

          Greg, I can have empathy and then also understand and respect a lovely rant. Really.. I am a great multi-tasker like that.
          Again.. empathy for a individual going through something. I can feel and relate to, but a perfect rant against an Attitude that I find detrimental against others. I can also totally get on. Why can’t my empathy switch out depending on who I deal with? Why cannot I choose who gets my emotional points based on my mood? Why can’t I change my mind based on the wind? Why cannot I have true feelings for ALL people suffering? Oh, I can and I will.

          • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 6:44 pm |

            Understanding a rant and the emotions behind it is one thing. Saying you adore the words in it is another. It contradicts the idea that you are empathetic towards the very types of people those words show no respect for. You are welcome to change your mind but don’t sit here and say you are empathetic and sympathetic towards the infertile when you constantly say things that contradict yourself. If you aren’t sure whether you are or aren’t say so.

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 1:02 pm |

      So infertiles are second class citizens who should just do society a favor and just kill themselves in your mind?

      • admin | September 13, 2013 at 6:18 pm |

        And for the record what appealed to me was the whole FANTASY CHILD line of thinking. So yes, being that I lost a real flesh and blood human being who was irreplaceable in my life but could have been replaced by the next baby available in his parents life with them non the wiser, it resonated to me. I choose to applaud the whole paragraph, rather than do a hack editing job. Sorry of that offended your sensibilities.

        • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 7:39 pm |

          You aren’t saying the idea of a Fantasy Loss (loss of the ability to conceive a child) isn’t a real loss that someone can hurt from are you?

          • J.L. | September 14, 2013 at 3:29 am |

            Grief is for what’s real. If you fathered a child, the child implanted, but for whatever reason, the child passed away, by all means, grieve for the loss of that unborn child of yours. That grief isn’t invalid.

            The grief that IS invalid, is the grief for children you HOPE(D) to have but that were never created and you know never will be created from you. That’s not a loss. A loss is when you have something and then it’s gone. If you never had children to begin with, there’s no loss, thus to grieve for it and to become so grieved you are willing to forgo ethics/morals, you are willing to spends thousands either through medical treatments, or adopting an infant, most often now foreign born, instead of providing a home for a child of any age who is already in this world, and is an actual orphan in need, THAT goes from insane to evil.

            The belief that you HAVE to raise human beings, particularly from infancy up, in order to fit in with society, in order to feel whole, and in order to feel the highest form of accomplishment, is an insane belief. There are so many more important, higher life achievements, than raising a child. There are so many ways to help humanity, to make a greater impact. Yet, it would mean having a self less heart, with self less motivations, and parenting (producing) and/or raising children is all about ego. It’s the “look at this extension of myself” and “look what I’ve done, I’ve raised this human being up, and *I* did a bang on job, aren’t *I* great!”

            I know the pain of both losing an unborn child, and a child through a kidnap and immoral adoption. I know that I not just wont have anymore children, I can’t, for several reasons, one being it’s near physically impossible. Would I love to have more children, to take care of, to raise up, whether mine or others, of course, because I love children, I love taking care of them, I love to be a benefit to others. Do I feel sad that I wont be having anymore children, a little, and more so because it means my one surviving child is deprived of siblings, which I believe usually are a benefit, as opposed to growing up an only child. The fact is though, I’m not panged with a grief for non existent children. It’s not a loss. It’s simply something I’m not gonna have, and because I recognize it’s a desire, not a need, I’m able to accept it and be at peace with it. Unlike so many infertiles, who act as if they are entitled to children, and as if it’s a need that has to be met in order for them to live, and so they must do whatever it takes, or or or, oh no, you’ll surely die. You such infertiles are akin to vampires, you truly are. You use children like blood from which you feed off to survive. It’s sickening. You people AREN’T well. You need counseling, or in some cases, you need to be locked up. Because some of you show how deranged and evil you are because you steal children fresh from their mothers wombs! Then you exile the mothers and live out a fantasy life, one in which you brainwash the children into believing they’re yours. And even more evil, IF you tell them they weren’t born from you, you tell them such things as the people they were born from, died, are bad people, or whatever you think of to try to prevent them from seeking out their parents, and establishing the relationship with them that they could have had if not for you evil vampiric monsters stealing them.

            And you expect sympathy, empathy. Empathy is about mentally perceiving what it would be like to personally experience the same experience of another, to understand the other person’s position and the mental and emotional impact upon them, in order to realize WHY they think and behave the way they do. There’s no need to empathize when it comes to most infertiles, because the why is a given: most are broken, damaged, mentally, emotionally, morally. And were so before realizing having a first ,or more children, wasn’t going to happen. And sympathy is for people who actually deserve it. If you deserved the sympathy, that would mean supporting your invalid grief over not producing another human, and sharing in that grief with you. Not having a human being created from you isn’t tragic, it’s not the end of the world, the sooner you realize it, and start helping the men women and children already in this world suffering from poverty, abuse, neglect, sickness and injustice, the better they’ll be, and in turn, the better you’ll be!

            • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:27 pm |

              “And you expect sympathy, empathy.”

              I don’t think many do, actually. People say the most moronic, insensitive stuff.

              But I wish if people were going to be offensive about a disability they would keep it to themselves.

              • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:23 am |

                No, they expect more than empathy and sympathy and they get it! They are allowed by society to steal a child and get the support to do it, duh. And yes, people do say moronic and insensitive things, especially to mothers of adoption loss and adoptees… Funnily a lot of those people suffer from infertility. Shock, horror. But don’t let the facts stand in your way of your little grandstanding and ‘political’ speeches.

                • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:49 am |

                  “No, they expect more than empathy and sympathy and they get it!”

                  No they don’t. They are criticized for their choices in life unrelentingly.

                  btw- people don’t say this in public, but a lot of older relatives think adopted children are defective and mentally fucked up.

                  I have no idea why you think everybody supports adoption or why you think most infertile people would give a shit about that. Most people suffering from infertility do not adopt.

                  The popular culture is misogynist and anti-women. It’s extremely critical of women who don’t have kids, for whatever reason. This culture is also critical of single mothers and low income mothers.

                  Apparently you think it’s a all feminist loveyhugy out there for some women. It’s not.

                  • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:55 am |

                    Um, wow, you really don’t know much. While I know a few people with infertility who haven’t adopted, I know of far too many who HAVE and most unethically.

                    You are really way off base with your ignorance. Sorry not trying to be horrid, you just are.

                    Yes, I know many who think of adopted persons and their natural families that way, because I have HEARD and READ them SAY it. So that blows your theory.

                    Why are you here arguing something you really have no ground with? It just doesn’t make any sense. You have nothing to back up your claims and yet continue to argue on an issue which not only do I know for fact but has been evidenced over and over again first hand. You are fighting a losing battle. And I don’t actually want to fight with you, seriously not worth it.

                    • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:50 pm |

                      “You are really way off base with your ignorance. Sorry not trying to be horrid, you just are.”

                      Dude – most people with infertility do not want to adopt. I wasn’t talking about people who want to adopt.

                      Look – a lot of people do not want other people’s babies because they only want their own kid. You seem clueless about this.

                      One friend told me that, “I am too selfish to adopt.” Meaning that she doesn’t want to take care of somebody else’s kid. And, really, would you want someone else’s kid? A crying, pooping, and really, most babies are ugly – let’s be real.

                      You are talking about a pro-adoption culture.

                      I am talking about infertility, straight up. NO, there is not much empathy in the greater culture. People love to criticize and critique the sexual and marital choices of women. They criticize people who are infertile. They suggest that infertility is the fault of the person, even when it’s caused by cancer.

                      People suggest that people with infertility are sluts with STDs, or careerist, or don’t care about family, or are not worthy of being parents, or have made bad choices in life, or goofed around and had fun instead of getting married and having children.

                      Yeah – people are pro-adoption, but that is VERY different from being supportive of infertility.

                      It’s really interesting to me that you can’t comprehend that the majority of people with infertility do not want to adopt and will not adopt. [Not for ethical reasons, but because they are repelled by the idea of caring for someone else’s baby.]

                      Babies are, quite frankly, a pain in the ass. Most people only want their own baby because, really, do you want someone else’s baby?

                      I mean, really — human babies aren’t exactly cute like puppies or kittens. They look like wrinkled up old men.

                    • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:51 pm |

                      To summarize:

                      You know people who adopt.

                      You don’t know the infertile population, most of who does not want to adopt.

                    • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:53 pm |

                      I have heard in just the last month someone say that he is not interested in adoption because he thinks kids who are adopted are messed up.

                      So, yeah, it’s out there and it isn’t new.

              • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 7:40 am |

                Poll,

                People like JL are not worth responding to because they have so much hate having a rational discussion is not possible. I only addressed Claudia’s reaction to it. This is where I pick and choose my spots where I only engage in discussion that I can learn from whether I agree or disagree with that person is irrelevant.

                • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:54 pm |

                  ok, got it. Sorry I overreacted.

                • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 2:25 am |

                  You’re wrong dude. I don’t hate. I simply have righteous anger concerning people who choose to be immoral and choose to do wrong, particularly when that wrong violates other people’s rights, property, feelings, person hood!

                  I don’t have any hate for those who for whatever reason can’t conceive. I don’t have any reasons of blame for them as to why they can’t conceive. First because it could be anything, and I believe that even if something they did contributed, I am for mercy and would rather people be forgiven then forever punished.

                  I also don’t think they should just put on a happy face and act like they aren’t bothered by it. I never said I don’t have any care for them, and that I don’t recognize that it’s a disappointment. I just refuse to view it as some extreme tragedy like the loss of a real child or a parent too soon, to invest great length and great emotion, into a grieving process, and worse, to then, catapult oneself into the realm of acquiring a child through any means, any cost, and with no regard for the pain it OFTEN causes the child and their parents who lose them, OFTEN, against their will!

                  I also never said all infertiles are evil. I was speaking of the ones who are. You don’t have to agree but just because you don’t, doesn’t make me wrong or hateful. But keep twisting what’s said all because your mind is already made up and so any dissenting opinions rile yourself up and you feel compelled to dissect dismantle, and destroy them, to leave only yours as though only your view is valid. It’s a classic abusive dictator tactic and I’m sure many of us here are wise enough to see it as such.

                  My first choice is for people to take care of the children already here in this world in need, before people go in debt and go bonkers trying to produce one of their own, often in a lab and then when that fails, more often than not, they seek womb fresh infants, with in most cases either no knowledge for the trauma to the infants to be separated from their mothers right after birth, or they choose to not care, often because they believe good care taking and supposed love will make up for it. That IS selfish, and frankly, cruel. Because such people are knowingly inflicting harm on an infant, for their own personal gain! Do you even know that babies don’t even perceive their selves as their own persons until 10 months post birth?! So ripping them away from their mothers any time under that age, makes it all the more devastating to them!

                  I also happen to believe in a God who is the giver of life, that he opens or closes wombs and that alot more people might be granted their own children if they put faith in God, and prayed to Him about it, and it was His will. If it’s not His will, then yes a person should accept that with humility and grace, instead of acting like the world is ending because of it, that they’re entitled to a child, and that they can do whatever they want to get one, moral law and legal law be damned!

                  People can compare losing a non existent child to a real child, or a real relative, but the comparison wont ever be valid because it’s not the same in any regard.

                  • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 8:45 am |

                    First you have no right to say what the infertility loss is like unless you have gone through it yourself. If you have then I hope you yourself has adopted an orphan. If you haven’t you need to STFU and get yourself some help to deal with your hate.

                  • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:18 pm |

                    A way to check language and its appropriate use:

                    If you can substitute the word “black” or “gay” for the word “infertile” and it sounds like you are straight outta the KKK? That means that your language is not appropriate….

                    “The Blacks stole my child.”

                    “The Blacks are entitled.” The entitled Blacks”

                    “The selfish blacks.”

                    “Blacks just want a womb wet baby”

            • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:58 am |

              ” You such infertiles are akin to vampires, you truly are. You use children like blood from which you feed off to survive. It’s sickening. You people AREN’T well.”

              OMG. You R crazy. Most infertile people don’t adopt and don’t want anybody else’s infant.

              As my friend put it: “I’m too selfish to adopt.”

              btw – the whole vampire thing was really over the top. But points for drama.

              And it’s a good example of how infertility is treated in the public sphere. That is precisely my point. People are scapegoated and this comment is a great example.

              • J.L. | September 15, 2013 at 4:54 am |

                Apparently you don’t get analogies or vampires or you are vampiric yourself.

                Not getting what one wants when they’re selfish, and they feel they must have it, often leads to insanity and immorality in people so that they steal, lie, and otherwise do wrong, including causing injustice, trauma, grief to others. That is what most people who don’t have 1 or another of their own children, do. They covet the children of others, and they lie and cheat, and otherwise do whatever else immoral thing they decide to do, in order to acquire the child, because that child IS to them as blood is to a vampire: they crave the child, they ingest the child mentally and emotionally, they feed off the child, they feel empowered through the child.

                So, try again, because your other comments are invalid.

                • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 10:58 pm |

                  I guess I’m not a baby person because I have no idea what you are talking about.

                  But I don’t understand people who want to even hold other people’s babies. Kids don’t become interesting to me until they can talk in complete sentences.

                  • Laurel Ehrichs | September 15, 2013 at 11:15 pm |

                    Thus, why you missed the clear subset of infertile people this rant of a blog was discussing.

                    • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:19 pm |

                      Blacks just want a womb wet baby.

                      There’s a reason it was “missed.”

                      It wasn’t there in many spots.

          • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:53 pm |

            Nope. I am not at all. I am a total believer that the loss of that fantasy is very real and MUST be grieved. I happen to think that the loss of the fantasy child is NOT acknowledged enough ( from my limited exposure to IF suffering) and that adoption is often used as a cure, rather than having that grief worked though first.

            • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 1:59 pm |

              Ok, I just wanted to understand whether you were agreeing with JL that a fantasy loss doesn’t exist. Instead you were just going back to the idea that the loss can be fuel to pursue adoption. As you are aware we can’t forget that donor conception is another way used to “cure” infertility. We are on a similar page on this concept.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:24 pm |

      “I not only don’t but could never have sympathy for an infertile because being able to have life created from ones self is not a necessity to life.”

      SHES A BARREN HAG A WITCH KILL HER SHE DOESN’T DESERVE TO LIVE!

      • J.L. | September 15, 2013 at 5:11 am |

        “SHES A BARREN HAG A WITCH KILL HER SHE DOESN’T DESERVE TO LIVE!”

        Really? That’s odd, I didn’t use those words, didn’t even think them. Who exactly did you say is crazy, I’m thinking you meant to say you.

        Just because I don’t see the need to empathize when it comes to someone who doesn’t get to have a litter of their own kids, and just because I don’t feel bad for them, DOESN’T mean I don’t care for them at all. I just happen to believe that not producing one’s own children isn’t a tragedy, it’s a devastating loss, BECAUSE, there are children in this world who are in need of a home, of people to raise them, to care for them, as their parents should have, but for whatever reasons, their parents don’t. It wouldn’t be until we lived in a world in which no child lost their parents, thus there were no children in need, that for those who then couldn’t have their own children, would I then feel bad for them.

        I believe for those who can’t produce their own children it is an wonderful opportunity for them to take care of the children who’ve lose their parents. After all, who is supposed to take care of them, if none of the people who can’t bear teir own children are willing to do it? We’re just supposed to shove the children into orphanages, because that’s just so loving is it?! That’s what’s best for them, is it?

        While I am anti adoption, I’m NOT anti taking care of children already in this world in need! I prefer a more ethical route, with a legal foundation of guardianship. If an adult rejects that method, it speaks volumes of their character. Because if their heart was how it should be, which would be for what is right, for simply getting to take care of a child, morally right, in all truth, then they wouldn’t prefer the route of adoption with the falsifying of records, the sealing of records, the disconnect from their family (for people who are clueless, family is the people you are connected through first by blood then by marriage through your blood) and there wouldn’t be the implementing of titles of mommy and daddy on one’s head when they didn’t father nor mother that child. The truth is most people who can’t have their own kids, do pursue adoption, and they do so because it’s a construct that acts as though babies are randomly delivered by storks, and thus are up for grabs, that anyone who gets hold of one, can claim ownership, and raise that child up as mommy and daddy, proving it’s not at all about the true welfare of the child, it’s about the adults and their gross egos, with their selfish desires who crave the children like vampires crave blood, feeling a need to own the child, to feed off the child, deriving a feeling of power, and wholeness from the child. That IS insane. Children aren’t meant to complete anyone! They aren’t meant to be used as objects to achieve pleasure! They are human beings in early development, and they need help short term or long term, and anyone who can’t recognize and respect that first and foremost and take proper care of another human being, in the childhood stage, doing right by them, shouldn’t be granted the access to any child in a rearing capacity!

        • J.L. | September 15, 2013 at 5:13 am |

          *isn’t a devastating loss.

          The rest of the typos should be easy to translate for anyone with a high enough i.q.

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:01 pm |

            Your characterization of people suffering from infertility [lumped all into one group, of course] comes across as emotionally unbalanced.

            • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 2:30 am |

              No. You and Greg just assume I’m speaking of all infertiles, which I’m not. I’m speaking of the ones I reference, the evil ones who forgo morality and reject children for womb fresh infants, and many who violate the rights of the parents, and their child’s right to remain with them, as well as other violations to acquire a child at any cost, because they are selfish and are more concerned with their own happiness, above all others, that they don’t care if they hurt someone in order to achieve it!

              • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 11:00 am |

                I think you need to go back and re read your opening comment post in this thread. Because your opening line and that post set the tone:

                “I not only don’t but could never have sympathy for an infertile because being able to have life created from ones self is not a necessity to life.”

                Do you care to clarify this statement? Because you paint a pretty broad stroke on the infertility community here.

                • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:20 pm |

                  It’s like saying “I will never have any sympathy for the blacks.” “or the gays.”

                  really, it’s pretty bad, the way you are speaking.

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:05 pm |

            Most people with infertility don’t want to adopt [and refuse to adopt] other people’s kids, whether they are infants or older. They are literally repulsed by the idea.

            Because you are anti-infant adoption, this should make you happy.

        • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 7:49 am |

          Being infertile does not make someone obligated to save the world’s children. The fact that you believe they are is another example of your insanity. If you are that concerned about children in orphanages, step up to the plate and adopt one of them yourself otherwise STFU.

          I really hope that you get the support and mental help you need because its obvious that you require extreme help. You are a very hateful person based upon DECISIONS in your life that you made. I feel bad and hope things turn around because being a hateful person who lacks compassion is no way to live.

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:22 pm |

            Actually you don’t know anything about JL’s life so I would tell you to STFU because I do and you are way off base.

            • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 6:48 pm |

              Actually I don’t give a crap about JLs life. As far as I am concerned JL is a heartless piece of garbage. JL should step up to the plate if JL is going to say that infertiles are obligated to adopt the children that JL doesn’t want to.

              • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 2:35 am |

                LOL And I’m the one you claim is full of hate? I’m the one you claim is a “heartless piece of garbage”. LOL Look in the mirror dude, don’t project yourself onto me. You not only could have, you should have gleaned a minute idea as to my character. But you sure as heck have no way of ascertaining who I am wholly, because you don’t know me, you have no relationship with me. But go ahead, hurl your insults, I know it makes you feel better, and makes you feel superior. Would you like a balloon and a sucker, maybe a teddy bear? How bout a straight jacket. With such venom you spew, you do seem quite dangerous. Definitely not someone I would entrust with a minor.

                • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 8:54 am |

                  I don’t hate you. I pity you because the events in your life have turned you into a hateful person. You were the one who started down the path of insults with your opening post and set the tone. You created the image of yourself as someone who is damaged by adoption who now feels the need to tell others how if they are infertile they are obligated to adopt the children you refuse to. It’s not healthy to hate as you do. Please seek out help for your sake and society’s.

              • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:21 pm |

                Greg,
                don’t give into hate. I think she’s just ignorant and doesn’t mean to be hateful.

          • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 2:31 am |

            “Being infertile does not make someone obligated to save the world’s children”

            You’re right, being HUMAN however, DOES!

            • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 8:58 am |

              And again I ask his many have you saved?

          • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 2:42 am |

            You have no idea of the deck I was dealt. You have no idea what happened to me. You have no clue as to all the losses I’ve been DEALT, not through my actions, but because of the actions of others. You also have no idea of my state of mind, or my heart. You think by reading some comments on here you do, good for you, whatever floats your boat. I do think you’re short of some oars though. 🙂

            Oh and fyi, I’ve been evaluated by SEVERAL doctors and other professionals over a period of years, and not one of them diagnosed me with any mental illness, and aside from being prescribed anti depressants due to the depression of the abuses done to me, mostly as a minor, and a sleeping aid due to a problem with insomnia, I was also deemed not in need of any other psychotropic meds.

            So tell me, how many doctors and counselors have you seen that have deemed you completely of sound mind? I’m sure you’ll say just as many if not more than me. LOL. You’re becoming really laughable.

            • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 9:17 am |

              Having been diagnosed with ADD when I was three I’ve had many evaluations and seen many therapists in my life. Outside of a teenage depression that had me on anti depressants for a few years but I’ve never had a situation where I’ve been diagnosised with any mental illness. I don’t know whether I’ve seen as many, less or more than you but it’s irrelevant. It’s not a contest for me of who had it worse. So much for your theory though.

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:22 pm |

          “The truth is most people who can’t have their own kids, do pursue adoption,”

          This is not a true statement. only a minority of people diagnosed with IVF pursue adoption from foster care or internationally or domestic infant adoption.

          And there is this new technology called IVF, and an older technology called IUIs.

          About 7.4 million women are diagnosed with infertility. There are 14 thousand domestic infant adoptions a year in the U.S.

          7.4 million “the infertiles” versus 14 thousand adoptions.

          Hey, let’s say that AGAIN:

          7.4 million “infertiles” versus 14 thousand domestic infant adoptions.

          What the percentage? That would be less then 0.2% of “teh infertilties.” And that’s only if you assume that no gay people adopted domestic infants that year.

          What was that? 0.2%!

          0.2%. That’s your percentage of “teh infertiles” who adopt and it’s a HIGH estimate.

          As I said, the great majority of people who are diagnosed with infertility do not consider adoption.

          These numbers are easily available on teh internets.

          I’m kind of loving the word “infertiles” now. It’s awesome in a horrible way.

          P.S. – it’s none of your concern if someone choses to adopt out of foster care or chose to remain childless or chose to pursue medical treatments or surgery. Just as it’s none of your concern who someone marries. Just as it’s none of your concern when or how a woman gets fibroid surgery. Just as it’s none of your concern if a woman with breast cancer chooses a lumpectomy or a mastectomy.

          It’s not your place to insist that other families must work in the foster care system. That is very nervy of you to judge them, especially if you do not yourself offer your home to foster children.

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:31 pm |

            I should mention, the number of kids born from donor eggs per year now exceeds the # of domestic infant adoptions.

            erm is much higher then then egg donor kids born each year. It’s very popular with young lesbians right now.

            • TAO | September 16, 2013 at 9:15 am |

              Have you ever sat back and wondered what it would be like to never know where you came from?

              Just like in the case of social service nets other developed countries provide for mothers…

              Those other developed countries have, or are starting to understand the damage to the one created done by allowing anonymous donations. So the child – at the very heart of this entire conversation – actually has his/her best interests taken into consideration…

              Just one more area the US lags desperately behind in best practices – where the needs of the adults over-ride the needs of the intentionally created child….the right to know from whence they came.

              • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 9:20 am |

                Absolutely, this goes way beyond adoption. Closing the door on adoption does not address the bigger issue

              • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:24 pm |

                “Have you ever sat back and wondered what it would be like to never know where you came from?”

                Tao, I am talking about the best way to reduce adoption.

                I brought up egg donation to make a point about numbers and adoption demand.

19. NZRosie | September 13, 2013 at 1:29 am |

    to Greg & anyone else who is pushing the adoption barrow. Quite frankly I don’t give a toss whether people are infertile by choice, by circumstance or any other way – NO-ONE has the right to take another person’s child & change the child’s identity so that the adults can pretend to have a happy family. Research has shown that by the time a woman gets to looking at adoption she is so psychologically damaged that she should never be allowed custody of a child. Adoption damages the child but then the child is expected to adapt to the pretense of being another person. I believe adoption just allows supposed adults to continue to ‘play-house’ just as they did with their dolls when they were children themselves. IT is time these supposed adults grew up and realized that ‘playing house’ is for kids.
    Also, in New Zealand, one of the first women to arrange adoptions was actually hanged for baby-farming.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:29 pm |

      “Research has shown that by the time a woman gets to looking at adoption she is so psychologically damaged”

      holy crap, now people are saying that all infertile people are mentally and psychologically damaged?

      judgy judgy judgy

      • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:18 am |

        Yes, they are! How else do you explain the deranged actions to literally steal a child from a mother just so they can have a child?? Certainly isn’t sane behaviour now is it? Or perhaps you think that is sane??? Very concerning if so!

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:38 am |

          “How else do you explain the deranged actions to literally steal a child from a mother just so they can have a child??”

          You aren’t talking about adoption — you are talking about ALL people who are suffering from infertility and calling them mentally unstable.

          You are scapegoating an entire group of people and claiming that their medical experience has made them unfit mentally.

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:57 am |

            Actually no, I’m talking about adoption here and it was quite specifically related to. YOU are the one making it about all other parties. YOU, no one else.

            • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:26 pm |

              no it wasn’t.

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:34 pm |

          over 7 million people are diagnosed with infertility.

          less then .2% adopt.

          so, yeah, your opinions about “teh infertiles” as a group are crap.

          People’s character are people’s character. They don’t become unethical because of a sickness.

          that’s like saying that everyone who gets cancer will sell meth. Just like the main character in breaking bad.

      • NZRosie | September 15, 2013 at 7:45 pm |

        Research going back to the 1920’s also found that adoption psychologically damages the child. But who gives a flying fig about that because after all children who can be garnered from anywhere must be available to fill the wants of a woman who cannot have her own.

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:38 pm |

          7.4% diagnosed with infertilty.

          less then 0.2 adopt domestic infants.

          It’s really hard to understand that the great majority of people diagnosed with infertility don’t want other people’s kids, huh?

          Why do people think their own kids are so awesome that everyone else (or anyone else) would want them?

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:40 pm |

            Look, I don’t want to hurt anyone else’s feelings, but I bet you don’t want someone else’s kid.

            So you should be able to understand that majority of people in the world are not interested in adoption. And that includes the majority of people who have been diagnosed with infertility.

            • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:43 pm |

              Now I’m worried I hurt somebody else’s feelings.

              I’m sure your kids are adorable. But can’t you please understand that most people don’t want to take in other people’s children?

    • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 8:45 pm |

      So basically all infertiles are demented lunatics who should be committed to mental institutions is that what you’re saying?

      • NZRosie | September 15, 2013 at 10:53 pm |

        NO. Stop trying to over-state what is being said. I actually find the term ‘infertiles’ offensive but you keep using it. Nor am I responsible or ‘happy’ at the findings of research over the years. However, these are the findings of the research & should be treated as a fact & with respect. There was nothing in the research that mentioned ‘demented lunatics who should be committed to a mental institution’ – all it said was that women, once they reached the stage of considering adoption, were seriously psychologically damaged that they shouldn’t be allowed custody of a child.
        I would suggest that counseling would be of assistance. Also, it must be time that people like doctors should be stopped from offering adoption as a solution to the childless.

        • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:46 pm |

          I think something is true:

          It is quite possible that people who have gone through years of medical treatment have PTSD and are traumatized.

          Likewise, it is quite possible and likely that the first mother is traumatized and suffering from PTSD.

          So three people come together, all who are potentially suffering from clinical trauma and manipulated by an adoption agency.

          This isn’t a good start to a relationship.

          • Laurel Ehrichs | September 16, 2013 at 12:12 am |

            Um, PTSD in mothers of origin is a result of relinquishment trauma, not the act of being an expectant mother. Thus changing your formula impact and why expectant mothers need protecting from the damage that untreated infertile potential adoptive parents create via exploitation and lies of omission during the relinquishment and adoption process.

        • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 9:27 am |

          It seems as though you are only looking at this from an adoption standpoint that these are unfit people to parent rather than actually caring about these people. Which I get on this forum. It shouldn’t be expected that it would get that respect here.

20. TAO | September 13, 2013 at 9:25 am |

    GREG,

    You crossed MY line in the sand with your response to CB, a long-time friend of mine.

    You said: “You don’t get it and probably never will because as I’ve told you before you are ChildFree by choice not childless by circumstance.”

    CB has told you that YOU have no bloody clue why she is childfree and unlike you she has retained her vagueness over why – YOU have no idea if she suffers from infertility or chose childfree or whatever – YOU have no clue. Yet you have the audacity to TELL her you have TOLD her before that she is childfree by choice? Seriously? You know better than the person who is living her life why she is childfree? Not bloody likely.

    You are so wrapped up in your MEness that you told me on my blog – sorry your son passed away and then inferred with your following sentence that well at least I had a child because you never will experience that – but you have empathy and I don’t?

    You have been on this kick to get Adoptees and Mothers who surrendered their babies to UNDERSTAND why infertile people act badly…all said under the banner of we need to make it better for them so they don’t act that way. “The only way we can do that is by learning why someone crosses that line understand it and figure out what can be done to prevent it.” How do you prevent it – You can’t – only the person responsible for their actions can just say no…

    You said: “There are many infertiles who get outcasted from social circles and families just because they are infertile.” Here’s how I avoided not being outcast after my son passed because really, who wants to be around a grieving mother when you are trying to have a nice time – I sucked it up in public, and pasted a happy smile on my face, and didn’t talk about woe is me – which also stopped me from breaking down in tears which still happens to this day a quarter century later. One foot in front of the other…

    Why aren’t you seeking support from groups that deal with the same as you are currently going through? Why are you trying to get sympathy here?

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 10:21 am |

      Tao,

      My comment to CB is my opinion. I never said it was fact. Maybe you got that impression based on how I worded it. It was just my opinion on what I define as being childless by circumstance. What I define as being childless by circumstance is a person or couple lacking the ability to have children.

      For instance you have one fewer child based on circumstance not because you made the decision to have one more child. Someone who made the decision to not have anymore children would not understand the fact that you suffered a loss.

      If your feeling is that as a society there aren’t things that can be done to prevent infertile couples from crossing the line then I fear the demand for adoption and third part you reproduction is only going to get worse.

      As for why I am here is to bring up something that I feel isn’t something that is talked about enough in the adoption reform platform. It’s something that is indirectly impacting the demand for adoption. It’s not to get sympathy. I have a support system for that. But not everyone has a support system.

21. TAO | September 13, 2013 at 11:23 am |

    “For instance you have one fewer child based on circumstance not because you made the decision to have one more child. Someone who made the decision to not have anymore children would not understand the fact that you suffered a loss.”

    Greg – the above paragraph makes NO sense – try again.

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 11:58 am |

      What makes no sense?

      Those who suffer from secondary infertility or have a situation where one of their children pass away at a young age suffer a loss based upon a circumstance. They don’t have the ability to make that decision whether to have additional children. Whereas those people who decide to only have one child have made a decision to do so. Those people do not suffer a loss, they made a decision.

      For me the same applies to those who suffer from primary infertility who are childless based upon that circumstance not any decisions they made. Those who make the decision for whatever reason not to have children are living ChildFree. I don’t look down upon these people or judge them. But those who decide to live ChildFree cannot relate to someone who had the ability to make that decision taken away from them nor could they understand those who are childless by circumstance.

      Does this make more sense? If not, where did I lose you. Thanks.

22. TAO | September 13, 2013 at 12:22 pm |

    Greg – so basically what you are saying is that no one can ever understand what another goes through?

    I can stretch myself to state with certainty that loosing a child to Domestic Infant Private Adoption, and living with the fact that your child is alive, and being parented by someone else, out there, somewhere, must be far harder than having to bury your child. My story had an ending – their story is never-ending and without any avenue to change, watch out for, show love too. I can’t begin to imagine the hell that would be but I can certainly understand it would be hell. I can’t imagine what my mother went through living day after day without her child that was still alive, somewhere…but I know that it was hell.

    You still did not explain what you meant by telling me that … “For instance you have one fewer child based on circumstance not because you made the decision to have one more child.”

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 12:58 pm |

      I don’t think a person can fully understand what it’s like to go through an experience w/out going through it themselves. It’s my opinion not fact

      As for your example, I think it shows what I was getting at.

      There was a word missing in that statement. It should have read like this:

      “For instance you have one fewer child based on circumstance not because you made the decision to not have one more child.”

23. HannahSarah | September 13, 2013 at 1:10 pm |

    I know I said I wasn’t going to “waste any more time” on fertilist sites like this, but I read Greg’s response to my earlier comment and felt the call to comment in this forum because I feel the need to clarify what I said before. Greg-I affirm your efforts to engage the natural parent/adoption community because I agree that this conversation NEEDS to happen. I even agree with some of what these communities stand for-OBC’s being made available to adoptees-ABSOLUTELY 100% agreement-to do less is a crime against humanity. Open adoption-I’m all for it-I see it as healthy and a life giving way to do adoption when necessary for a child in need.
    But as my original post indicated, and I hope that you will agree with me here, Greg-I draw the line at fertilism. I draw the line at learning more about adoption ethics issues from people who refuse to see that slinging mud and hateful attitudes towards IF people and dehumanizing us because we still have the audacity to want to be parents in a way that we ourselves can live with is not going to help or change anything.
    I have thought of a few analogies to further illustrate my initial point: If I were a person of colour and I said to myself one day “gee, I would REALLY like to learn more about the civil rights movement through the eyes of white people-especially those who opposed it every step of the way and who still oppose it today. I can never ever experience that movement through the eyes of someone who is white, but I have a deep desire to see where these people are coming from” Suppose I followed up on this desire by reading websites sponsored by the Ku Klux Klan. As a person of colour who is trying to understand where the other side is coming from, how much pro-lynching, racist, “n-word” heavy propaganda am I supposed to swallow before I am allowed to call bull**** and seek out other sources that present the same information that I am seeking in a way that is less biased and more balanced in its presentation. Or if I were a Jewish person who wanted to gain a better understanding of those who chose to become part of the Nazi movement in the 30’s and 40’s. Should I settle down with a copy of Mein Kampf and come away from it saying “well, maybe Hitler and his cronies had a point and were right in what they had to say and how they carried it out-maybe Jews ARE vermin that deserve to be rounded up like animals and exterminated as if they were no more human than their executors” Or if I were lesbian and wanted to understand those who were homophobic by reading Fred Phelps’ writings-you get the picture. I will do all that I can to understand where these adoption reform people are coming from, I will learn from them all that I can about what needs to happen to reform adoption, but when these people respond to IF people with nothing more than a demand that we do nothing more than “roll over and play dead” by accepting a child empty existence-different than a CHILDFREE life-for the last time! or only adopt the children that they think we should adopt, then I have to call foul and name those attitudes for what they are-FERTILISM FERTILISM FERTILISM!!!
    And I know that much of these attitudes come from people who have been hurt by unfair and unethical adoption practices. I try with all my might to have sympathy and empathy for the pain that is at the root of your reform efforts, but your experiences of hurt do not give you the right to turn around and use those same attitudes to hurt, dehumanize and dismiss the hurts of others.
    Another analogy to illustrate my point-a few years ago I went on a trip to Salem MA in an effort to learn more about the Salem Witch Trials that happened there in 1692. One learning that I took away from this trip was that the persecutions of those trials were carried out by a people who had experienced persecution themselves-the Puritans. They had left Europe to escape religious persecution. So that they could turn around and persecute others in the same way that they were persecuted. Guess how much sympathy/empathy/understanding I had toward the Puritans after I learned that little tidbit? Right. ZERO. It’s the same thing here-I may have sympathy and empathy for those who surrendered their children to adoption-but when you cross the line and start turning PAP’s AP’s and IF sufferers into scapegoats, you and your whole cause have lost my respect and my support. I will throw my support instead behind groups and causes that promote the same reforms but who do not sink so low as to dehumanize those that they choose to see as the “enemy” but who are merely on the other side. Greg-stay the course, keep on talking-the IF community need more people with your courage and compassion
    And Claudia-I appreciate your respectful response to my earlier post, but I must comment on one point that you made that suggested that I don’t think AP’s should be held to a high standard when it comes to their desires and ability for parenthood. I must respectfully tell you that you are incorrect on that. I DO believe that AP’s should be held to a high standard when it comes to them becoming parents-parenting is one of the most important and hardest “jobs” in this world, and you HAVE to have what it takes to do it and do it well. But I also hold biological parents to those high standards as well. I’m not sure that you do-if I am wrong please enlighten me. I do not believe that IF makes a person unfit to be a parent, and I do not believe that fertility automatically makes a person fit for the responsibilities of parenthood. I don’t believe that parenthood is something that should be entered into on a whim by ANYONE. I believe that all biological parents should have to live up to the same high standards that responsible adoption agencies insist that PAP’s meet. If they cannot meet those standards, then I’m sorry but they should not be parents until they do the legwork necessary to bring themselves up to “code” as it were-ability to conceive naturally and give birth notwithstanding. And sometimes $$$ is not enough to meet those standards either-I shudder to see angry NM’s who make statement like “if I have a million dollars I could have kept my child and been a good parent”. Really? What if you are an irresponsible individual who do not have the maturity and sensibility to put your child’s needs first and foremost when they need it-which I would argue is from the moment they are born, if not when they are conceived? How would having an insane amount of money make you a better parent if those important elements are not in place? All the $ in the world cannot make an unfit parent suddenly fit-that’s just reality. And it’s a reality that is true for AP’s AND biological parents alike. We will probably have to agree to disagree on this , Claudia, but I am okay with that. Take Care

    • TAO | September 13, 2013 at 3:28 pm |

      “I believe that all biological parents should have to live up to the same high standards that responsible adoption agencies insist that PAP’s meet.”

      But those high standards PAP’s must meet fails too…and the adoptee pays the ultimate price. Never should happen in adoption.

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 6:07 pm |

      Hannah,

      I agree with you I can engage with folks who want to engage but you have to draw the line when it gets downright nasty. That’s not to say I ignore their stories and where they came from. Because I don’t. I have learned from each persons story. But that doesn’t give them the right to hate on anyone who had no responsibility in their situation. I don’t hate on people who sling mud at us. In fact I wish them the best because it’s obvious they are coming from a dark place.

      “but when these people respond to IF people with nothing more than a demand that we do nothing more than “roll over and play dead” by accepting a child empty existence-different than a CHILDFREE life-for the last time! or only adopt the children that they think we should adopt, then I have to call foul and name those attitudes for what they are-FERTILISM FERTILISM FERTILISM!!!”

      This is where I believe based upon the constant contradictions that Claudia does not give a shit what happens to someone dealing with infertility. As long as they don’t adopt through Private Domestic Infant Adoption, I don’t believe she cares what happens to that person/couple. That is also where her sympathy ends in my opinion. It’s like the Pro Life crowd who doesn’t want a fetus to be aborted but when it becomes a child they have no interest in providing for it. I don’t believe she cares if they sink into a deep depression and it causes health complications resulting in death. I don’t believe she cares if they are outcasted from their family and friends. I believe she feels they should just do something she doesn’t have the courage to do and that is adopt from Foster Care. See it’s ok for others to adopt from Foster Care but I get the feeling Claudia believes she is better than that. I would have more respect for someone suggesting to adopt from Foster Care if they had actually done so themselves. Very few parents who Adopted from Foster Care make that suggestion Infertile couples, because those people actually understand what adopting through Foster Care is like and how difficult it is.

      “I may have sympathy and empathy for those who surrendered their children to adoption-but when you cross the line and start turning PAP’s AP’s and IF sufferers into scapegoats, you and your whole cause have lost my respect and my support.”

      I definitely understand where you are coming from. Though I don’t lose respect for their cause, I just lose respect for that person.

      • cb | September 13, 2013 at 6:25 pm |

        “I believe she feels they should just do something she doesn’t have the courage to do and that is adopt from Foster Care”

        And I keep saying that I will and would.

        • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 6:48 pm |

          I wasn’t referring to you CB. I was addressing Claudia.

          I am well aware of you saying you would. But wouldn’t you agree that your attitude might change if you experience become a Foster Parent or adopt through Foster Care?

      • admin | September 13, 2013 at 6:43 pm |

        Well, I am not going to adopt from foster care to prove to anyone that they should adopt from foster care. So Oh well, I guess I fail that one. So much for trying to provide SOMETHING of a bone for someone who was looking for an ethical way to parent. Though I agree that it isn’t perfect either, it’s just “less imperfect”
        Greg, I am seriously not wasting any more of my poor fingers time trying to convince you that I have empathy for people who desire to have children and cannot. Fine, go believe what you wish about me. I know how I feel and you can’t change that. What you choose to believe about me is hardly a real truth nor a reflection on my feelings, but your own.
        Hannah, thank you for coming back… and I will say that I do agree that parents in general DO need to have a higher standard…all of them! Raising children, IMO, is THE most important job that we, as humans, can partake it, I mean, on a real level, it is THE purpose of why we are here.. to propagate the species. ANd I will not be so ignorant to say that ANYONE how CAN procreate must, etc. That’s just stupid. However, I do think that when it comes to adoption.. and particularly with the standard of the infant adoption marketing that we see today, that as a society, we place the wrong values on what makes “good parenting”. I do fear that we put much more emphasis on the material needs and less on the more intangible importance of genetics, intuitive understanding, unconditional love and acceptance. Perhaps I frame my thoughts too tightly in my own head and when said, they seem to be all encompassing, but my rants as they are DO tend to circle upon the domestic infant adoption industry and the mothers who basically would be GOOD parents and yet, are pushed to “choose” adoption based on the wrong motivations. In other words, yeah, all the other factors for good parenting really are in place…but yet THESE Mothers are convinced to relinquish and that, in my eyes, in my life, was a real tragedy and the adoption was unnecessary. I would MUCH rather see us as a world, find better ways to support mothers so that they CAN be the best mothers that can and also then improve the child welfare system so when person is NOT a fit parent, they are identified at a much earlier time, and if not assisted, the child could then, before any more damage be done be placed in a better situation. In the end, rants aside, it shouldn’t be about fantasy or needs of society or any population, but about the children.

        • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 7:00 pm |

          If you aren’t going to adopt from Foster Care then stop suggesting it. If you are trying to suggest an ethical way to parent other than natural conception there really isn’t one. Any way you cut it the adoptive parents are going to have to accept that they are taking a risk that their adoption may not be ethical. Even as you pointed out it’s not imperfect and no guarantee to be ethical. Who is to say a couple wouldn’t adopt a child in a situation where reunification was still possible? That is why at least for me it shouldn’t be suggested as an alternative to parent ethically. We agree to disagree on that one.

          • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:57 pm |

            No.
            I will continue to suggest Foster Care adoption with my disclosures and concerns for ethical applications in all situations and my reasoning for that is not up for discussion. But I will say that it is based on a much bigger picture and I am willing to go there for it.

            • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 3:28 pm |

              You can suggest it all you want.

              It’s going to be as relevant and as useful as some random elderly stranger who tells the young couple to hurry up and have a baby.

              Or worse, the old man who tells young women that they need to get married and have a kid before she is not able to get married.

              It’s one thing to talk about unethical and abusive or coercive situations.

              But its quite arrogant to tell people that they must adopt from foster care. Adults are quite capable of deciding for themselves if they do, or do not, want to adopt out of foster care.

              I absolutely hate people who tell other people to “just adopt.” Let adults figure out for themselves if they wish to reproduce or grow their family.

              But you are attempting to shame other people into adopting.

              The children in foster care are adorable, and it’s also annoying to me that foster children are being portrayed as “less then” infants. They are not less desirable or less awesome as people.

              But it’s not my place to tell people what to do. And It’s really offensive when other people try to buttinsky in and shame people into adoption.

              That is NOT how to do it. And anyone who adopted from foster care out of SHAME is not someone who should be doing that!!!

              Hello!?! Is this not obvious?

              • Laurel Ehrichs | September 15, 2013 at 9:10 pm |

                Lollerskates. Are there people out there that are shamed into parenting via spending an ass load of money on adoption?

                • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 11:52 pm |

                  No, you it’s a compete waste of time.

                  It’s only offensive and annoying to be told what to do by someone else.

                  These are all things that people should not be buttinskies about. These are personal decisions and it’s obnoxious for one adult to tell another adult what they should do:

                  Don’t tell adults that they should or should not:

                  1) Adopt an older child from foster care. Not your decision! Private family decision!

                  2) Get pregnant (yeah, not your concern)

                  3) Have an abortion or Give birth (not your decision!)

                  4) Sex. Just stay out of the decision. Adults get to make up their own minds here.

                  5) Marriage and relationships. Stay out! Private decisions!

                  • Laurel Ehrichs | September 16, 2013 at 12:03 am |

                    And where exactly did I butt into any of those guidelines?

      • cb | September 13, 2013 at 6:50 pm |

        “I don’t believe she cares if they sink into a deep depression and it causes health complications resulting in death. I don’t believe she cares if they are outcasted from their family and friends.”

        Greg if you have issues with depression then you need to get help. I am concerned for you because something you said to me once made me worry that you were suffering from depression and this just confirms it.

        You might remember when I told you about my relative who never got to raise a child because she had premature children that passed away and you told me “Who knows what your relative would have done if she had lived. Who knows maybe she is better off being in a better place instead of living in misery the rest of her life”.

        With my relative, she did have major losses but I don’t think she would ever have chosen to die before she was 40. However, reading that reply at the time did make me feel concerned for you. If that is how you feel about the possibility of living without children, then you do need to get help for your own sake and your wife’s sake and certainly I don’t think you should even consider other options of becoming a parent until you have done so.

        Btw I did leave something out when talking about my “relative”. In fact, I was talking about my birthmother. Yes, she relinquished me. She then never had another living child. Perhaps you feel differently now? Perhaps you might feel that because she did have a living child but one she never saw again, then she was more fortunate than you because, hey, at least she got to give birth?

        • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 7:37 pm |

          CB, I was not referring to myself. I have actually been able to manage my depression through therapy and exercise. I am still working through it but I’ve been able to manage it thus far, still a long way to go. Not all of what I say is based on my own personal experience. There are those in the IF community who IMO have gone through far worse than what we have. But I have read stories of those who have gone infertility who haven’t handled it well who slipped into a deep depression it brought out other health conditions one night they go to sleep and the next morning they don’t wake up.

          Let me understand this correctly, your birth/first mother relinquished you and then when she tried to have another child your biological sibling was born prematurely and then soon after your birth/first mother died before she turned 40? Am I understanding the situation correctly? I don’t want to comment on it unless I know what I am responding to.

    • cb | September 13, 2013 at 6:21 pm |

      “And sometimes $$$ is not enough to meet those standards either-I shudder to see angry NM’s who make statement like “if I have a million dollars I could have kept my child and been a good parent”. Really? What if you are an irresponsible individual who do not have the maturity and sensibility to put your child’s needs first and foremost when they need it-which I would argue is from the moment they are born, if not when they are conceived? How would having an insane amount of money make you a better parent if those important elements are not in place? All the $ in the world cannot make an unfit parent suddenly fit-that’s just reality”
      Hannah, no-one said anything about “having a million dollars”. In fact, I think all the NMs are saying is that perhaps they would have liked a small amount just at the start. Those small amounts do help because they can help get the infrastructure in place and give someone time to get things together. These days, $6000 is 3 months pay so that could help a woman take a small amount of time off work so she can get stuff into place and organise things. In fact, some countries have baby bonuses to help give all new mothers a “leg up”. Also, almost every country BUT the US has paid maternity leave.
      What people don’t realise is that many of today’s first mothers are what are called “the working poor” and often they slip through the cracks. Also, another thing is that many first mothers weren’t irresponsible – in fact, in a high number of cases, it is because their contraception failed. In fact, that makes ense because if a woman does have unprotected sex, then she knows to go and get the morning after pill. If a woman’s contraception has failed, she probably isn’t going to know until she starts missing periods.
      Anyway, it isn’t all about money. The counselling itself is an important factor. Many women are promised unbiased counselling about their options and they end up getting counselling aimed primarily at getting them to chose adoption. And what people do forget is that it isn’t the promise of a “childfree” life that makes them chose adoption. What often happens is that a genuine fear that many caring expectant mothers have, i.e. “Will I be able to keep my child SAFE” is exploited. At no time are their INTRINSIC QUALITIES taken into account, only their EXTRINSIC CIRCUMSTANCES.
      The construct of the modern form of adoption (i.e. since the war) has been about providing children for families – it was never about the child, it was never about the pregnant woman. Everything in the modern form of adoption was designed to make it easier to market adoption to IF couples at the time – they were promised that their child would be a blank slate and that their child’s past would be obliterated. The mothers would be expected to go as if they never had a child. The adoptee would be expected to adapt in every way and if they stepped outside that box then they were considered mentally ill. Now, I am fortunate that my parents were more compassionate.
      IF couples have always existed but while eugenics was popular, they didn’t want newborns because they were worried about getting “defective products”. 6 months was the ideal age for adopting at the time and for a while it meant that women who had no other option ended up caring for the child and then still having to relinquish them due to no support at all. Thus, caring men and women (many Christian) started organisations to help these women get a good start in raising their children. In fact, the organisation through which I was adopted had the main aim during the war of helping unwed mothers get a good start to life with their babies – by giving them help in getting jobs, accommodation and very importantly childcare. 20 years later? That was all gone – because of the high demand for newborns, providing the above help would have meant the supply would have lessened. The irony is that eventually in the country of my birth, there was a shortage of adoptive parents – so the organisation changed its counselling methods to help women raise their children and started providing what they had originally promised. The mother’s pension was then brought in to help women – in fact, a TV program at the time showing the dilemma of unwed mothers at the time actually helped speed up the process of getting the pension made available to these women.

    • Eileen B | September 13, 2013 at 7:01 pm |

      Hi HannahSarah,

      Fertilism I am taking to mean people having prejudices against people who are infertile. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding the term, I have honestly never heard it before.

      I am a first mother whose story is quite similar to Claudia’s (just for background on who I am and what my connection is to adoption).

      I absolutely do not have any prejudices or thoughts for or against people who are unable to procreate in the usual fashion. I certainly do not think I am any better because of my hyper-fertility than someone who has hypo-fertility. I do work under the assumption that most couples who go the domestic infant adoption route are experiencing infertility. Not all, but most.

      I do have prejudices against people who pursue domestic infant adoption, their infertility is just an aside to me. I do not mean to sound callous when I say that I just do not care WHY someone chooses DIA. A person or couple’s justification of why they would participate in a corrupt and unethical institution just does not matter to me because in my mind, nothing can justify it. I do choose to “sling mud” and absolutely harbor “hateful attitudes” toward people who participate in DIA, but their infertility is just a red herring.

      I find it interesting in your analogy that you are the person who has struggled against injustice and are seeking to gain understanding of the oppressors’ belief system. I sort of think I understand what you were trying to get across, but man, you picked some piss poor comparisons. The difference is that most of us on this side of the adoption equation have suffered nothing but loss because of adoption, in direct opposition to your side of the equation which gains everything. Yes, you suffer a loss from being INFERTILE, but that has nothing to do with adoption.

      When people are speaking badly (in your eyes) about “infertiles” it isn’t really the infertility that people have an issue with. It is how you react and take action in regard to your fertility that most people have a huge problem with (i.e. adoption).

      Of course IF does not make a person automatically unfit to be a parent and of course the contrary is also true. I will preface my next statement by acknowledging that the social service system in the US pertaining to removing children from their biological families is also corrupt. In cases of abuse and neglect, we do take action and remove children from their biological families. Many of these children are in foster care and actually would benefit from adoption. I would like you to elaborate on the high standards you feel that biological parents need to live up to (in your mind) in order to retain their right to raise and keep intact their families. It sounds like you are crying foul that agencies or anyone really would have the gall to question your right to raise someone else’s child. A person would be trusting you with their child’s life, and you don’t think that holds you to a higher standard?

      I would categorize myself as one of “those angry NM’s who make statements like if I have a million dollars I could have kept my child and been a good parent”. It is an undeniable fact that I would have been an excellent mother to my first son and money was the only thing standing in my way. It is a simple fact. I would wager it is a simple fact in most cases. What if you, Hannah, are an irresponsible individual who does not have the maturity and sensibility to put your child’s needs first and foremost when they need it? You could pose that same question to any expectant mother and the answer is…there is no answer. You can’t know until you step up to the plate. It seems as if you are working under the assumption that because a woman becomes pregnant unexpectedly that this automatically makes her an irresponsible mother. Or, and perhaps this is my insecurity rearing its ugly head, are you suggesting that us biological mothers are drug addicts and prostitutes who could not possibly be responsible parents?

      My final thought…the difference between a hyper-fertile first mother and an infertile adoptive mother is that we first mothers DID NOT CAUSE YOUR INFERTILITY. Taking it further, we played absolutely no part in it. There is no debate about it. We did not suck your fertility away. We did not pay an agency to steal your eggs or scar your reproductive organs. We did not change your sexual orientation making it impossible to biologically procreate with the person you love. We had no hand in it. However, people who are infertile are the main money driving force behind domestic infant adoptions. Infertile people DO play a role in some fashion, even in the most abstract way, in adoption. You are the demand behind the supply and demand adoption industry in the US. Can you see the difference?

      • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 12:10 pm |

        Just as birth/first mothers do not cause a couples infertility, an infertile couple DOES NOT force an expectant mother to make HER DECISION to place her child for adoption. We did not force you to conceive a child. Unless you were raped it was YOUR DECISION to have sex not ours. Thats the difference is that unless there was a raped involved your situation is because of DECISIONS you made not because of a circumstance you had no say over. We did not cause your pain just as you did not cause ours.

        I do agree with you that infertile couples are part of the driving force behind the demand in adoption. As I said earlier in the comments my point is how do we lower that demand? I think it starts with education about infertility, support for infertile couples and not out casting them by people who have children.

        • Eileen B | September 14, 2013 at 5:56 pm |

          Hmmmm, force? I suppose that depends on what you mean by force. I would lump coercing a mother into giving up her son or daughter under the heading of force, but that is just me. Certainly many adoptive couples who happen to be infertile have engaged in coercion.

          Did someone force women to become pregnant (obviously not talking about rape here), of course not. But becoming pregnant is wholly separate from adoption. Just as being infertile is wholly separate from adoption. It is not becoming pregnant that is painful, it is the adoption that is painful. And I will state this again, adoptive parents absolutely do play a role in causing that pain. Are they the only reason for it? No. But they are a part of it, and unfortunately, fertility issues tend to go hand in hand with people seeking to adopt.

          I disagree with the notion that educating the general public about infertility is somehow going to reduce the demand for infants. Please explain to me how this would be helpful. Sincerely, I am not putting it together in my mind.

          • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 8:06 am |

            Eileen,

            At the end of the day the expectant mother is the one who signs the papers to place her child for adoption is her decision. Sure, I’m not denying others may convince her to place but its still her decision and no one else’s. I’m not going to deny recognition that there is guilt that comes from making that decision.

            It’s the having sex that leads to pregnancy in a situation that for whatever reason they feel they are unable to raise their child. It’s the unplanned pregnancy that CAN lead to an adoption decision being made.

            Increasing awareness about infertility will prevent the childless by circumstance being outcasted from society because they don’t have children. They won’t feel the need to go to extremes to become parents. Society won’t tell them that they can just adopt or just try IVF. Society won’t tell them you don’t know what life is until you have children. Society won’t expect the childless to work longer hours because they don’t have children. Society will appreciate the fact that the childless pay taxes that go towards paying for someone else’s child’s education. These are the things that are lost.

            I don’t expect you to understand this because you didn’t go through infertility. You are uniformed on it. If you care about addressing the demand in adoption I suggest that you educate yourself on it.

            • Eileen B | September 15, 2013 at 9:01 pm |

              Greg,
              You said, “At the end of the day the expectant mother is the one who signs the papers to place her child for adoption is her decision.”

              Yes the mother is the one who signs the papers, but I would not exactly call what occurs a decision. How can one make a true decision when they are only presented with half-truths and outright deceptions?

              There are plenty of people in this world who are childless and I would not consider them outcast by society at all. I have no idea if the people I personally know are childless by choice or circumstance, but it doesn’t seem to matter a whit to their friends and family. In what way are those in our society outcasts?

              I disagree that being the outcasts of society is the reason people go to extremes to become parents. It seems to me that it is a natural pull for many people to want to raise a family and I can not begin to imagine the sadness that comes in learning one can not fulfill their dreams and hopes. It is certainly not society that tells someone they must have a baby. Being “outcast by society” as you say just seems like a cop out, when the actual fact is that a person wants something (in this case, a baby), a person has the money and means to care for what they want (a baby), and a person has agencies, family members, etc. telling them that adoption is perfectly fine and so that is what they do.

              It seems that what you are saying is that a person suffering from infertility does not really desire a baby, but because of societal pressures they feel obligated to comply and procure a baby by any means necessary. I respectfully disagree. I do think that our society absolutely reinforces the notion that adoption is a wonderful way to make a person’s dreams of a family of their own come to fruition.

              • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 8:27 am |

                Eileen,

                It is up to the expectant mother to know what she is getting into. I’m not denying that she maybe encouraged to make a certain decision but its still her call. That’s where the accountability needs to be. Just as it is for Adoptive parents who participate in an unethical adoption.

                There are many people who are infertile who are excluded from social and family gatherings because they don’t have children. They are excluded from conversations because they don’t know what it’s like to have children. Those who have children a lot of times look down upon those who do not.

                From there you are right they are encouraged to “just adopt” by family and friends who are unaware of what is involved with adoption. That feeds into their desire to parent and leads to unethical adoptions. Now that doesn’t excuse them from being responsible. At the end of the day while they maybe childless by circumstance the DECISION to pursue adoption is their call and no one else’s.

                My point is how as a society can we help not outcast those who are infertile not enable them to make poor decisions and instead support them in the way that they should. The goal would be to change the conversation from “just adopt” to something different.

                • cb | September 16, 2013 at 9:02 am |

                  “There are many people who are infertile who are excluded from social and family gatherings because they don’t have children. They are excluded from conversations because they don’t know what it’s like to have children. Those who have children a lot of times look down upon those who do not.”

                  I actually don’t know anyone who’s been excluded from family gatherings because they suffer from IF. Most people I know would be pretty sensitive towards IF sufferers.

                  The funny thing is that when I’ve read IF forums, the complaint often isn’t that they are excluded from family gatherings, it is because the IF sufferer is upset they WERE invited – eg “How could they invite me to such and such when they know it would upset me seeing a baby? One suspects that after a while, those particular IF sufferers didn’t end up getting invited. .

                  Btw I do agree not to say “just adopt” – that is certainly not advice I woud give anyone. (and before you go on about FC adoption – at no time have I or others said you MUST adopt from FC – most people are just saying that if one really and truly has the urge to adopt, then FC is the more ethical (not actually saying ethical, just “more” ethical) – that doesn’t mean at all that you should adopt from FC or anywhere)

                • Eileen B | September 16, 2013 at 9:24 am |

                  “It is up to the expectant mother to know what she is getting into. I’m not denying that she maybe encouraged to make a certain decision but its still her call. That’s where the accountability needs to be”

                  Encourage is a polite word for what really occurs once a mother contacts anyone involved with adoption. Coerce, deceive, withhold vital information….these are all regular “encouraging” occurrences that happen in DIA. Also, try to remember that we are not always talking about adult women, in many cases we are talking about under 18 women who are the most vulnerable and scared they have ever been in their entire life. Our society does not even trust an under 21 year old woman to make a decision about whether to have a drink or not, how can we allow them to sign over their parental rights?

                  I do not deny that it must be a terrible thing to not have the ability to procreate (if that is what someone desires to do). However, I disagree that exclusion from social gatherings, conversations, and being looked down on are reasons a person or couple chooses DIA. They choose DIA because they want a baby to call their own.

                  I think the overall conversation about what DIA truly means and the real ramifications for both mothers and adoptees needs to change. Our society needs to put the emphasis on family preservation (meaning biological family preservation) instead of assuming that a person will be better off being raised by someone with more money. A person should be raised in their own biological family except in cases of abuse or neglect, that is what is best. What is best for a baby/child is what adoption should be about. If we work from the knowledge that being raised by our biological family is what is best, than everything else should fall in line.

                  I have seen some of your comments regarding adopting from foster care. No one is saying that an infertile person has to adopt from foster care. However, working from the basic premise that a baby/child is best raised by their bio family the only option left for an infertile person who would like to raise a family is foster adoption. These are the children who in theory absolutely need a stable home to call their own. Couple that need with an infertile person’s desire to raise a family and you have a best possible case scenario. That is what adoption is supposed to be about, marrying the two needs and desires. If an infertile person has no desire to adopt from foster care, then they would not have to, no one is saying they must. It is a choice. On a personal level, no I will not be adopting from foster care because I have my own biological children and lack the resources or desire to raise someone else’s child. However, if I were infertile and wanted to raise a family, that is the route I would go, or I would choose to remain childless and accept that having a baby just isn’t an option for me. Not a simple thing to deal with, to be sure, but it is what it is.

                  • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 9:55 am |

                    See this is where I think you are uniformed on infertility and what people who suffer from it go through. Sure the desire to parent is the main reason of what drives people to pursue alternative parenthood but there are other factors that contribute to driving them to DIA or donor conception.

                    You sitting here and saying that an infertile couple adopting from Foster Care is best possible case scenario and that if you were infertile you would adopt from Foster Care just screams of ignorance. It is like someone telling an expectant mother with an unplanned pregnancy that placing her baby in an open adoption is a best case scenario for all parties. It’s wrong when people say that just as it is for you to say that an infertile couple adopting from Foster Care is best case scenario.

                    • Eileen B | September 16, 2013 at 11:25 am |

                      Greg,

                      Well, I guess the best case scenario for someone who is experiencing infertility is to conceive a child of their own. I think that you and I are working from two different angles, you seem to be discussing what is best for the infertile person, while I am discussing what is best for the would-be adoptee. The person being adopted is the perspective we should be looking at DIA from. As I have said, being raised by one’s biological family is the best possible outcome (except in cases of abuse or neglect) for a human being. And so, it is not ignorance of infertility issues that leads me to state that foster care adoption is the best case scenario, because adoption should not be about the adopters, it should be about the human being who people would seek to adopt. Is it the best case scenario for an infertile couple? No, having a biological child of their own would be, but if that is not possible, then foster adoption is best.

                    • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 12:05 pm |

                      There is no best case scenario for couples unable to conceive a child. And best case scenario for the child in Foster Care is not adoption, it’s reunification or kindship adoption. It’s not adoption through Foster Care.

                      So I’m not looking at this from what is best for the couple who is infertile. What is best for the infertile couple is different for each. There is no one size fits all model. That is where I don’t think you understand.

                    • Eileen B | September 16, 2013 at 12:23 pm |

                      Can’t reply to post below so I’m replying here.

                      Yes, of course reunification is best for the would be adoptee, I meant when that is not possible. As in, bio family has passed away or is beyond hope in the abuse/neglect department.

                      I understand perfectly, it just isn’t my concern about what is best for the infertile couple, nor should it be, if we are talking about infertility as it pertains to adoption.

                      Let me put it this way, if a close friend of mine happened to be suffering from fertility issues and asked me my opinion on adoption, I would tell her/him exactly what I have written here. However, if that same close friend came to me upset about their fertility and needed to talk about that and wanted support for their issue, I certainly would not advise him/her in any way about adoption. That is as it should be.

                      My assumption is that if you are here, reading and commenting on a first mother blog and adoption, that you are interested in learning about specific issues regarding infertile people pursuing adoption. I think I read further up the page that you are not considering adoption at this point. I guess if that is the case, I am wondering why you are spending all this time commenting and reading here.

                      It isn’t that I’m not sympathetic to infertility, I just don’t think this is an appropriate place to garner support unless we are linking infertility issues and adoption together. If you aren’t seeking support, then I just don’t understand what you are hoping to accomplish.

                • Laurel Ehrichs | September 16, 2013 at 10:10 am |

                  “At the end of the day the expectant mother is the one who signs the papers to place her child for adoption is her decision.”

                  As a society, we socialize girls to be compliant, to trust educated people, to listen carefully to those speaking to them with respect.

                  This is why we have the medical intervention rates during childbirth and pregnancy. Informed consent does not actually exist because the default answer by most is, “well you know best so I’ll go with that.”

                  Same with the adoption industry. The assumption is because the industry has helped so many others through this, and that they are using the kind considerate voice, that obviously they know best.

                  And because we as a people prioritize compliant, respectful behavior from our female children, they don’t question.

                  So no. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it too. Personal responsibility comes from teaching our children not to unilaterally trust adults.

                  Those that fall for this, society failed them.

        • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 1:57 am |

          Woah, Greg, talk about judgemental! So a person who is fertile should just not have sex, huh? That is some weird logic and wow did that comment come over as angry!
          Choosing to have sex is one thing (I was raped by the way in my situation) but getting pregnant is another and WHY should a woman be condemned because she is fertile?? It takes more than one person to have sex incidentally and so what, they have sex. Then they get pregnant, again, not something they should be condemned for. I have close friends who got pregnant ON birth control! Actually this comment has just proven some of that anger towards people for just being fertile. You had to go down the whole choices road of having sex didn’t you? Don’t you GET IT YET??? Infertility DRIVES adoption demand; mother gets pregnant and is preyed on by agency to fulfil demand for who? INFERTILE PAPS!!! So that is why you cannot turn it around because we are NOT asking for anything from infertiles AT ALL yet infertiles are demanding OUR children! Most mothers I know lost children to infertiles. In fact I cannot think of any who were lost to fertile couples. That to me says a heck of a lot. That is why this post was written. And you still don’t actually get it although you sway from saying you understand and agree to this sort of comment. Shows you DON’T get it!

          • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 8:24 am |

            I’m not trying to be judgmental. Someone who has sex takes the chance that it could result in a pregnancy. If that person/couple is not in a position to raise a child then they are taking that risk. Those are facts not judgements. It’s none of my business what people do. Just don’t expect a hand out if you knowingly take that risk and it results in a pregnancy. It’s about being accountable for your actions not condemning people for being fertile. My intention was not to condemn expectant parents (not just emoms) with unplanned pregnancies but to hold them accountable. I hope you understand that I don’t believe your personal situation is what I was referring to.

            Same applies for Adoptive parents who take risks that their adoption might not be completely ethical (regardless of whether its DIA or Foster Adoption), they need to be accountable. The good APs are accountable.

            I think I’ve made it clear that I believe infertility drives the demand in DIA. Just as unplanned pregnancies drive the supply in adoption. There are ways to lower the demand and supply in DIA. Just focussing on the supply does not solve the problem (think you agree with that).

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 3:06 pm |

        “we first mothers DID NOT CAUSE YOUR INFERTILITY.
        Taking it further, we played absolutely no part in it.”

        I call BULLSHIT! Look dude, people with infertility did not cause your trauma. They were not the reason or the cause for you to put your child up for adoption.

        My friends who adopted the 7 year old from foster care is not suffering from infertility.

        Unless you decided to give up your child BECAUSE the other person was suffering from infertility –

        Which, btw, sounds absolutely fucking bizarre!

        Because it’s bizarre to say that because of infertility you decided to relinquish.

        Why are you people not blaming adoption agencies? Why are you not blaming the medical and economic systems that caused you to feel like you couldn’t afford to parent? It’s so fucking strange. This is like crazytown world.

        Stop blaming people who suffer from infertility. The great majority of them never adopt or get involved in adoption-world, as you all put it. In any case, the disease of infertility is not the causal reasons for relinquishment.

        Lots of people adopt who are NOT INFERTILE. The condition of infertility does not cause adoption.

        Look, I’m new to adoption world, but I bet I can summarize most of the causal factors:

        1) Lack of socialized medical care in the U.S. (or other places w/ out medical care.)

        2) Lack of real economic support for economically vulnerable mothers.

        3) Lack of social support, protection from social services and the state, in dangerous situations (ie- abusive boyfriends who pressure people to relinquish)

        4) Lack of social and economic support for young mothers whose families do not want to support the baby.

        5) No paid maternity leave in the U.S. No free or low-cost day care (see France/ Quebec for examples of how to prevent this.)

        6) Lack of socialized mental health care to help vulnerable people or struggling parents.

        Why are you not working towards these things? Instead you want to bash on people suffering from infertility as if that will change anything?

        • Eileen B | September 14, 2013 at 6:17 pm |

          Apparently I was unclear, but I do not blame infertile people for anything. Do I really need to explain that I am specifically talking about people who choose DIA who happen to be infertile every single time?

          All of the causal factors you listed I agree with, but you missed a huge one. Prospective adoptive parents who want a newborn (I am specifically saying newborn here so that you understand I am not referring to foster adoption) and are willing to pay MONEY to achieve that goal. Money drives the adoption industry. It is simple supply and demand. The supply is running low in the US but the demand is spectacularly high. This unrelenting demand for newborn babies is the driving force behind the corruption that occurs today in adoption.

          Are you seriously trying to convince us that adoption would still exist as it is today if infertility ceased to exist? To coin your phrase, I call bullshit.

          Since you got personal with me, I’ll make it personal. I did not relinquish my son with the conscious thought in my head of infertiles making me do this. However, because of supposed infertility in the adoptive parents, they were driven to participate in an unethical industry which deceived me, they were driven to participate in coercive practices in my case, and they themselves outright lied to me. And so, while I do take my fair share of responsibility for the adoption, I do refuse to take on any more than that. Is that bizarre? So be it.

          • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:04 am |

            Poll has just jumped in here without a clue to what he/she is even discussing. They are just trying to cause a problem. Troll like behaviour.

            Anyone who clearly has a brain and can read will know what you were saying. I totally agree with you. Infertility drives far too much of the DIA and for me personally I would still have my child if it wasn’t for the desperate woman who stole my child due to infertility. And that goes for nearly all the mothers I know (which is a freaking huge number) who have lost their babies through coercion and force.

            • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:20 am |

              You didn’t lose your baby because of a “infertile” unless they literally kidnaped your baby.

              This is what is needed:

              paid maternity leave.

              Better funding for health care.

              Better state funding for low income women.

              Economic and emotional support for pregnant women.

              You are scapegoating people because it’s easier then doing the hard thinking and work that actually changes the world.

              • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:59 am |

                Actually unethical adoptions are no different to kidnap only they twist the law to back them up. Please educate yourself about such matters.

              • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:32 am |

                Actually yes I did because they wouldn’t have pursued my child if they could have their own. So yeah, again, you know NOTHING. Good way to alienate people, come onto a blog and start to tell them what happened in their stories is not what actually happened. Yeah. Good one.

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:30 am |

            “And so, while I do take my fair share of responsibility for the adoption, I do refuse to take on any more than that. Is that bizarre? So be it.”

            You didn’t contact an adoption agency on a WHIM. You didn’t contact an agency because you felt bad for “teh infertiles.” Why were you there? The factors that placed you in that office need to be attacked and corrected.

            I don’t want you to blame yourself at all. You are NOT to blame at all. You were in a coercive emotional and/or economic situation. That is not your fault. NOT YOUR FAULT.

            You deserved economic and emotional support. It’s horrible and outrageous how the U.S. treats low income women.

            You should have had a therapist paid for by the state to help you emotionally. And you should have gotten paid maternity leave for a year.

            “are willing to pay MONEY to achieve that goal. Money drives the adoption industry.”

            duh, no shit. That’s why a socialist economic system changes things. Like 2 babies were adopted in British Columbia last year. 8 in Australia.

            Thousands were adopted in the U.S.! People do private adoptions in Canada. They can pay for mortgages and offer money in exactly the same way they do in the states through loopholes. What does Canada have that the States does not???

            Socialism. Health Care & paid maternity leave for a full year mandated by the government.

            “Are you seriously trying to convince us that adoption would still exist as it is today if infertility ceased to exist? To coin your phrase, I call bullshit.”

            You are WRONG. Thousands of gay couples want to adopt. Thousands of people who have two boys but want a girl. They are perfectly fertile.

            There aren’t enough babies. As it is not, the demand is turning increasingly to gay couples. IVF is also expensive though — if babies are available for adoption a lot of people will do it instead of IVF.

            THE DEMAND IS NOT GOING AWAY YOU HAVE TO REDUCE THE SUPPLY.

            • Eileen B | September 16, 2013 at 6:07 am |

              Poll,
              You stated, “You didn’t contact an adoption agency on a WHIM. You didn’t contact an agency because you felt bad for “teh infertiles.” Why were you there?”

              Actually a large chunk of the reason many of us contact an agency is because our families and friends suggest it. They suggest it because of the underlying idea that there are so many loving couples who can not have children of their own who would jump at the chance to provide a financially stable home for a baby. Is that the absolute only reason I contacted an agency? Of course not, and I agree with all the other points you brought up that need to be addressed, but infertility in others absolutely did make me contact an agency as well.

              As far as gay couples wanting to adopt, I agree with you. But in my mind they are infertile by design. The same thing goes for single women or single men who want to adopt. It is not the literal definition of infertility, of course, but I treat all DIA offenders the same. To be more clear, when a person or couple who wishes to start a family can not do so in the usual way, they are experiencing a lack of fertility.

          • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:01 am |

            “Do I really need to explain that I am specifically talking about people who choose DIA who happen to be infertile every single time?”

            Yeah, if you don’t want to offend someone, you do need to say it.

            It’s like saying “the blacks stole my baby.” Or “the whites stole my baby.”

            You are losing your individuality and becoming lumped in with a group. It’s dehumanizing and it hurts.

            • Eileen B | September 16, 2013 at 6:18 am |

              Since this an adoption blog and the author specifically states that if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t try to cram your foot in it. I thought it was crystal clear who and what I was referring to.

              Making a general statement about infertile people and their role in adoption is certainly not the same as saying the whites or the black stole my baby. When there is an entire marketing scheme leveled solely at attempting to persuade women with unplanned pregnancies to think about the poor couples who want only to have a family of their own, I feel perfectly comfortable talking about infertile people and adoption the way I have.

              I would assume that an infertile person who happens upon this blog is at the very least considering adoption, otherwise why in blue blazes would they be wasting their time reading about adoption? It would be akin to a male deciding to get offended because they happened upon an anti-rape blog and read a post bashing men. Unless the male in question happens to be a rapist or is considering raping someone, what is there to get offended about? It isn’t about them.

        • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:00 am |

          Oh FFS get over yourself. You know absolutely nothing about infant adoption, what drives demand and the reality of what happens. You are just here to cause a problem. If you want to actually offer something decent to the conversation then there is a way to do it, of which you are completely ignorant of. You have said nothing of any use yet and most of it is so way off base it is laughable!

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:14 am |

            Agreed – we have a mutual dis-admiration society.

            I came here because of the New Republic article and saw a front page post scapegoating people suffering from infertility. There’s no advocacy for useful things such as paid maternity leave, state-funded child-care, advocacy of socalism, socialized health care, or anything that would be at all useful in helping women to keep their babies.

            You all come across as scapegoating ignorant people to me who are more interested in venting and indulging your emotions then actually doing something useful to prevent adoption.

            Here’s something useful:

            Advocate for paid maternity leave.

            Raise money to help poor women keep their children.

            Do something useful that might actually help somebody keep their baby!

            • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 4:07 am |

              I do actually advocate for a lot of things but we are not here for that.

              This post is not scapegoating anyone actually but calling some responsible parties out on their crap. People think its okay to judge and condemn mothers who lose their children to adoption and have and do write a lot about them, denigrate their character, basically attack them without knowing them, and use them as a target for all their own bitterness and pain for not being able to have a child and THAT is seen by society as okay. THEY GET empathy, understanding and sympathy for it. I know because I have seen it countless times. We on the other hand get treated like sewer rats and people like you have just proven that is where society would like to keep us.
              I have had infertile people attack me for just being fertile. I lost my child because I had far too much empathy and listened to a couple and trusted their lies far too much. And no, I never contacted an agency as it is not how it works in my country.
              You can call us ignorant but you are the ignorant one.

              • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:07 am |

                I am sorry you were victimized and traumatized when you needed help. You deserved help and you did not receive it.

                “People think its okay to judge and condemn mothers who lose their children to adoption and have and do write a lot about them, denigrate their character, basically attack them without knowing them, and use them as a target for all their own bitterness and pain for not being able to have a child and THAT is seen by society as okay.”

                This is obviously morally wrong and should be condemned. Of course I would defend you against this behaviour.

                “I have had infertile people attack me for just being fertile. I lost my child because I had far too much empathy and listened to a couple and trusted their lies far too much. And no, I never contacted an agency as it is not how it works in my country.”

                My partner got held up by black youth at gunpoint, but he didn’t become a racist. He doesn’t judge anyone by the colour of their skin.

                But a lot of people say this: “But there is a higher percentage of crime among certain populations — doesn’t that justify generalizations and prejudice?”

                No. It’s not right. That’s called racism.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 3:14 pm |

        “You are the demand behind the supply and demand adoption industry in the US. Can you see the difference?”

        Greg – do you see what I mean? You are targeted here as a “potential force of evil.”

        It doesn’t matter that lots of people adopt who do not suffer from infertility. They hate every person who suffers from infertility and see you as the cause of their own situation.

        They are not interested in why they felt coerced into their situation. They think if they can eradicate people with infertility from the earth they will solve the problem.

        They don’t understand that the demand for adoption won’t stop there.

        I can think of at least 3 gay couples who adopted. I suppose they will also go after the gay community instead of trying to prevent the real causes of relinquishment.

        • cb | September 14, 2013 at 5:45 pm |

          Poll, you ask, why aren’t people blaming adoption agencies. I would say most of us are blaming the Adoption Industry, an industry run by those wishing to increase adoption to fill a demand.

          For example, there is this site Bravelove –

          http://bravelove.org/

          as Gladney says on their site:

          BraveLove is a campaign that seeks to drastically increase adoption rates in the U.S

          And a newspaper article about Bravelove:

          http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/2012/11/07/DA08279

          “With Halloween past, the holiday season has officially begun. Over the next two months, families will come together to make merry and cherish their loved ones. November, in particular, offers Thanksgiving and another important celebration for many families — National Adoption Month. Only through the compassionate act of adoption have these families become the one they are celebrating today.

          Yet the number of families able to benefit from domestic adoption isn’t nearly as large as it could be. Currently in the U.S., only 2 percent of women with unplanned pregnancies consider adoption according to the National Council for Adoption. BraveLove, a new Dallas-based movement, is dedicated to growing that number by encouraging young women to consider adoption when faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Since adoption is rarely considered, many families interested in adopting a child have to do so from another country.
          The mission of BraveLove is to provide honest, informative and hopeful communication about domestic adoption. BraveLove wants to change how people think about adoption by conveying how courageous it is for a woman to place her child with a loving, adoptive family. Ultimately, BraveLove wants to witness an increase in domestic adoptions.

          “We are very excited to see our vision come to life and to spread our message of love and courage,” said Ellen Porter, founder of BraveLove, who has adopted two children herself.

          “If a women is faced with an unplanned pregnancy, adoption may be a great option for her,” said Porter. “There are many people who view adoption in a negative light. But for many birthmothers, adopted children and adoptive families, it is an amazing act of love and courage.”

          To learn more about BraveLove, share their inspirational video or donate, visit www”

          Do you note from the first 2 paragraphs of the article whom this “drastic increase in adoption” is actually for. Does it really sound like it is about the child or the mother?

          No, it is because “the number of families able to benefit from domestic adoption isn’t nearly as large as it could be” and “since adoption is rarely considered, many families interested in adopting a child have to do so from another country”.

        • Eileen B | September 14, 2013 at 6:21 pm |

          You have completely placed your own insecurities on what I wrote.

          I will say this again, I do not hate infertile people. I do not hate anyone actually. I simply disagree with any reasoning that would allow a person to participate in what DIA has become in this country. I do not want to eradicate all the infertiles, that is just insanity. But, I certainly will not acknowledge infertility as a justification for separating a biological family, which is exactly what PAPs are participating in.

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:09 am |

            The rhetoric comes across as scapegoating and eliminationist.

            It’s true I am beyond tired of the bullshit of what goes on in the popular culture with infertility. It is total and complete bullshit and I’m ready to set things on fire after reading the blaming and the ignorance.

            “Infertiles get sympathy in popular culture?” HA! HA! HA! NOT.

            I hope you advocate for real things, like paid maternity leave or a socialized health care system or increased benefits for low-income mothers.

            These things can actually help real women keep real babies. It prevents adoption.

            Scapegoating and shaming “teh infertiles” does nothing to prevent coercive situations.

            And for all you say that it’s only reserved to people considering adoption — I saw a lot of statements in the comments that did NOT restrain itself to adoption and had NOTHING to do with adoption but scapegoated, generally, people suffering from infertility.

            • Eileen B | September 16, 2013 at 6:22 am |

              I disagree that anyone is using “teh infertiles” as a scapegoat. Infertile people, however small or large in numbers, who participate in DIA are a reason, in addition to they myriad you have listed, adoption is practiced the way it is today. It is not scapegoating to call people out on their bad behavior, even if it is not the only thing that needs to be addressed.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:37 pm |

      “how much pro-lynching, racist, “n-word” heavy propaganda am I supposed to swallow before I am allowed to call bull****”

      yeah, this.

      Clearly I’m hyper-reacting. But jesus god people some stuff is just so offensive and anti-feminist it’s over the top. It’s also weirdly misdirected and inefficient in the political sense of the word. It won’t accomplish anything productive to actually fix the problem of coercion in adoption. I need to get the hell out of this blog.

24. TAO | September 13, 2013 at 2:31 pm |

    Greg – ““For instance you have one fewer child based on circumstance not because you made the decision to not have one more child.”

    How many children do you think I have?

25. cb | September 13, 2013 at 5:46 pm |

    “Someone who made the decision to not have anymore children would not understand the fact that you suffered a loss.”

    Seriously, Greg? Anyone halfway HUMAN can understand the fact that TAO suffered a major loss. I don’t think one has to have had children to understand that.

26. cb | September 13, 2013 at 8:15 pm |

    Greg, I can’t reply directly to you because the reply button option further up isn’t there.

    I mean someone who has actually tried to foster or adopt via foster care and found that their council/state have made it so difficult that they were unable to do so. Apparently, some councils are like that.

    I have also researched foster care and F/C adoption and do know it is very difficult. In fact, you might note that I mainly talk about foster care, not foster-to-adopt, because I would like to help a child who needs a home, whether temporarily or permanently. I read a lot of the foster adoption boards (one adoption forum seems mostly a mixture of foster and foster to adopt parents now) and the one thing that does worry me is that it seems that some of the “foster to adopts” have a different attitude to the deliberate foster parents in that the foster to adopts don’t seem fully prepared to love a child they are fostering if there isn’t the possibility of adoption, whereas I feel that a deliberate foster parent of high quality is fully prepared to love a child they are fostering regardless of outcome. I don’t know if that makes sense.

    In fact, to me, the best result for adoption from foster care is one where the foster parents have taken a child in fully prepared to love them as a foster child regardless of outcome and then have found that RU didn’t happen and thus adopted the child.

    Now perhaps where we differ is that I do feel that I would be prepared to care for a child on a temporary basis and give my all during that time. I don’t think I would need to legally be a child’s mother or even be the only mother in a child’s life for me to care about that child.

    Btw I’ve now gone through menopause, Greg so in fact I couldn’t get pregnant naturally now anyway.

    Are all those who left it too long “Childfree’ or “childless by circumstance”?

    Let’s face it, I suspect that there are those within the IF community who judge each other re why they are infertile eg the genetically IF vs the STD IF vs the older IFs.

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 9:04 pm |

      See that’s where I disagree with you. Just because someone doesn’t pursue to adopt through Foster Care doesn’t mean they are not childless by circumstance. I think if someone won’t even research it’s a different story.

      I think where you and I differ are our reasons for considering adoption. For you it’s because you want to help a child in need. For me it’s because I desire to start a family regardless of what type of adoption.

      My IF has taught me a lot. In the past I would have judged others going through IF. Not anymore, I don’t judge those who wait until their late 30’s or early 40’s to have children and then go through IF. I don’t judge those who go through a treatment that I wouldn’t necessarily want us to go through.

      • Anonymous | September 13, 2013 at 10:27 pm |

        I do have to disagree with you on one point, Greg. It is a proven fact that a woman’s best years to conceive are 20-28. Women who wait too long have made their own choice about what was important. Having a known medical problem from an early age is one thing – waiting until you are too old is their choice. Their choices have consequences. If that big house was more important than kids – better enjoy that big (empty) house – that was their choice to make. To me, those are the ones with the entitlement issues figuring their money can buy whatever they want. Those are the ones that sicken me. I quickly tire of that attitude.

        • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 11:51 am |

          I need to bring up a few key points to your attention. I’m not sure how old you are but for Generation X and Y it’s not as easy as it was for the baby boom generation to hav children in your early to mid 20’s. It’s not about the big house and material goods but needing a Bachelors and in some cases post graduate education to land a stable job and having financial security to be able to support a family or even get married for that matter. It’s resulted in people getting married later in life and thus delaying trying to start a family. Maybe one or two of my friends got married before the age of 27-28. Few of them started to try to have children before 30. My wife and I started to try when we were 30-31. But if we had tried when we were 24-25 it would have been the same result as it is today. I’m not denying that the longer you wait the tougher it gets but because of how society has changed people aren’t getting married when they’re in their early 20’s like my parents did.

          When you mention having a known medical problem you are missing a good chunk of the IF population who doesn’t find out about the problem until they start trying. My genetic condition was not discovered until we started to try to have children. Yes, there are those people who know at a young age but that isn’t always the case. Also don’t assume it’s always an issue on the female end, male infertility factors are becoming just as common as female factors.

          The reality is we are exposed to more toxins in our environment today resulting in a decline in fertility. Science is only going to help so much in helping people conceive children.

          I understand you had a daughter who went through it and I’m not sure of her story and its none of my business. But I bring up these points as a good chunk of the population is not informed on infertility. They see the news and see celebrities in their 40’s trying to have children and think that’s what infertility is. The reality is infertility impacts 1 in 6 couples who try to have children. I don’t expect that statistic to get better if anything it will get worse as our environment becomes more polluted and our food supply becomes more tainted. Also people shouldn’t assume that because they were fertile that their children will be. My parents had no issues conceiving myself or my brother. So I think it’s important for society to be better educated on infertility because its something that will become more common in the future.

        • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 12:15 pm |

          “Women who wait too long have made their own choice about what was important.”

          I hate people who criticize women’s choices about sex and reproduction.

          FYI – I’m NOT talking about adoption & neither are YOU.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:37 pm |

        I have a friend who adopted a 7 year old through foster care.

        He is the coolest kid – so smart and nice with a fantastic personality.

        But it’s not respectful to tell people to “just” adopt. It’s not respectful to tell people to “just” adopt an infant and it’s not respectful to tell people to “just” adopt out of foster care.

        Stop pretending it will solve all their issues and stop pretending that you know what is right for their life.

        It’s not respectful to tell people when and how and under what conditions to have children. People will adopt out of foster care if they wish to do so.

        And it’s not your concern to tell them that they “ought” to adopt out of foster care and that will make them happy and fulfill all of their parenting desires. That’s bullshit because you don’t know them and you don’t know what they are grieving.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:40 pm |

      “Let’s face it, I suspect that there are those within the IF community who judge each other re why they are infertile eg the genetically IF vs the STD IF vs the older IFs.”

      In message boards — I never ever see this done. Ever. They know how fucking painful it is and wouldn’t do it.

      haha unlike this comment thread, of course.

      let’s JUDGE cunt infertile hag you old bag it’s your fault you got stds it’s your fault you’re not a real woman you’re immoral KILL HER KILL THE WITCH THE WITCH SHE’S INFERTILE!!!!

      see- do you feel better now? Doesn’t it feel great to be a completely obnoxious person?

      • J.L. | September 15, 2013 at 5:29 am |

        Hmmm, I surmise you wont be having your own flesh and blood child, and you believe you have the right to privately adopt a newborn, fresh from a mother’s womb.

        I surmise this because of the insults you’re projecting about how infertile women are perceived. It smacks of you being an infertile woman so insulted, directly or indirectly. And through your defense of the right for people to choose how to “grow their family”. That doesn’t smack of children being cabbages growing row by row, ready for the pickin by just any random stranger, no, not at all! *sarcasm* You smack down adopting from foster care, so heavily, and it’s what you have left out, what you didn’t say. It’s the whole private adoption of womb fresh infants. Really, it truly is sick for anyone, to crave a womb fresh infant, when there are millions of children in this world with broken hearts because they lost their parents, and often, other family, and are in orphanages, and in the foster care system, with no deep, sincere security of home and family. All because of selfish immoral, demented, people, who believe that if it’s not womb fresh, it just aint worth it. You think craving a womb fresh infant isn’t insulting, cruel, hurtful, to the children already in this world whose lives have been fractured, and are craving a home and family to grow with, but are deemed not worth it, are passed over, for a womb fresh infant – then you just prove I’m right about you, and every other person like you.

        • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 7:42 am |

          I think he/she is gay. They sure talk about it a lot. Why else bring it up in a post solely about adoption??

          • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:19 am |

            “I think he/she is gay. They sure talk about it a lot. Why else bring it up in a post solely about adoption??”

            Maybe I’m a hermaphrodite!

        • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 8:29 am |

          Again put your money where your keyboard is and adopt a child in need otherwise STFU.

          • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:16 am |

            “Again put your money where your keyboard is and adopt a child in need otherwise STFU.”

            yep. And even if you do adopt from foster care STFU.

            Not your concern. How would you like it if I told you who to have sex with? Or whether to have an abortion?

            That’s very annoying, huh? That’s because it’s not my decision to make.

            So STFU.

        • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:14 am |

          “you believe you have the right to privately adopt a newborn, fresh from a mother’s womb.”

          I’m not a baby person. The idea of having to take care of someone else’s infant literally disgusts me.

          And I would worry about the ethics. But, honestly, I don’t really like babies. I am uninterested until they start talking in compete sentences.

          Toddlers grunt a lot. Would ideally like to skip that stage.

          I might adopt an older child from foster care. One of my friends adopted a 7 year old kid and he’s a really smart, funny and nice little kid.

          “You smack down adopting from foster care, so heavily, and it’s what you have left out”

          No – it’s that I hate people who tell other adults what to do in their private lives. Don’t tell me that I need to adopt a child because you think I OUGHT to do it. That is so none of your concern and it’s arrogant to try to interfere in my life.

          I will make my own decisions, thank you very much.

27. cb | September 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm |

    Btw Greg, I said something earlier about it being possible to be fertile yet be “childless by circumstances”.

    Is that not the situation with your wife? That is, your wife is fertile but she is “childless by circumstances” because she is married to you. Because she loves you, she doesn’t want to have children with anyone but you so because of that, she is “childless by circumstances”. It would be unfair to call her Childfree just because, if she chose, she could divorce you or sleep with the mailman, wouldn’t it?

    Although my situation isn’t exactly the same, all I’ll say is that there was only one person I would have wanted to have children (something separate happened that I didn’t wish to go into). Yes, I could just have chosen some random man in the street but that isn’t me. And, to be honest, since you are a man, I don’t think you are in a position to judge a woman for not wanting having a child “by hook or by crook” but rather wanting it to be with someone special.

    • Greg | September 13, 2013 at 10:14 pm |

      cb,

      I am not going to share my wife’s story because its not my story to share. It wouldn’t be right if I shared her story.

28. Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:21 am |

    “Yes, I have NO way to relate to what if feel like to be betrayed by one’s own body.”

    But you do. It’s all about bodily integrity and CHOICE.

    Lack of control over your body and your reproductive choices. Forced birth, lack of reproductive choice, miscarriage, the inability to conceive — being pregnant when you do not want to be pregnant. It’s all about bodily integrity and the ability to control your own body.

    Lack of control over body and reproduction can = trauma.

    Disease and disability is associated with lack of control over the body.

    It’s not that hard to understand.

    • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:13 pm |

      You obviously missed that I was being completely facetious. Hence the example. I am well acquainted with trauma

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 12:22 pm |

        Yes, and you should understand that people undergoing medical treatment are also susceptible to trauma.

        You should also “get” that it is the lack of choice which is a central cause of trauma.

        People are particularly vulnerable to trauma when one experiences lack of control over the body and bodily experiences. Infertility and medical treatment is one of thing that can cause PTSD.

        Obviously, the vulnerability to trauma depends on the person, biochemical make-up, and other elements. But one does not have to undergo multiple medical treatments to “get” that “infertiles” (God, what a dehumanizing thing — to reduce people to their biological disability) are vulnerable to trauma as a result of lack of control over their body and their circumstances. Multiple medical treatments complicate the issue.

        Talk about adoption and adoption policy and adoption whatever. It has NOTHING to do with a medical illness. Most people who have this biological issue to not adopt.

        This weird shitting all over people with medical illness is just obnoxious.

        It’s not that hard to “get.”

        • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 12:32 pm |

          You put it much better than I ever could. I think the issue here is addressing the trauma and helping those people going through it. And telling them they can “just deal with it” is not the way to address it. If anything it makes a bad situation worse.

          • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 12:57 pm |

            Greg,

            I don’t know you, but think you might consider that this blog may not be a healthy place for you right now.

            I particularly worry that your wife might be hearing some of the attitudes in the blog comments. (ie- if she didn’t get married young enough it’s her fault, ect.) I would suggest finding a therapist who specializes in infertility and working through this another way, perhaps?

            Many people on this blog have been deeply traumatized. You become the “target” almost — right? For people who have experienced severe trauma and there is a pile-on. You are the potential “enemy” and the potential “cause” of the trauma. But you are, yourself, going through a traumatic experience.

            They are unable to respect your experience and your grief as you go through this process.

            And you are probably triggering their own trauma, as they are triggering yours. (do you see what i mean?)

            • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 1:29 pm |

              Poll,

              I am way ahead of you. I have been to a therapist who specializes in patients going through IF.

              I’m not sure what you mean regarding attitudes I have. I just pointed out that in society today people are getting married later. My marriage is not your traditional marriage. Up until recently my wife made more money than I did. We split the responsibilities around the house with me doing a fair amount of cooking and cleaning (though she is better cook).

              I’m aware of my place on here. I’ve been around for a few months and have learned a lot. Early on I did not pick and choose my battles as I got involved in more than I should have. As you pointed out I triggered a lot of pain in people I interacted with. I felt and at times still feel bad that I did. Lately, I have backed off certain topics on this blog but this one I felt I needed to as I believe I played some role in triggering the rant. I try to be respectful and recognize that they have dealt with trauma.

              My responses are not about me. I am lucky in that we had a quick diagnosis and did not go through a bunch of treatments delaying the inevitable. I also have the resources to pay for the type of therapy i needed that others aren’t able to. There are those out there going through far worse that I want to help by bringing awareness. I don’t want to see them become a target for the pro adoption reform movement. I want to see them supported and be able to work through something they’ll live with forever.

              • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 1:40 pm |

                Oh – I didn’t explain myself clearly enough.

                I meant the attitudes in the comments and on the blog.

                There is an attitude that blames people who are experiencing infertility for their own medical condition.

                I hope she’s not being exposed to that. It’s not her fault and it’s not your fault. But society tends to blame people who are experiencing infertility for their own condition. And the people commenting here seem to be doing that a lot.

                They don’t exactly respect her experience and I think they see her as a potential “threat” who might “hurt” someone. Do you see what I mean? She is a potentially “evil” person to them. If she is aware of the tone of the comments here, it may be upsetting to her. And if this diagnosis is relatively new, she really doesn’t need that right now.

                What you are going through is traumatic. I do wonder if exposing yourself to people who don’t respect your experience might make your experience more traumatic then it needs to be.

                • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 7:50 am |

                  Wow, this is blog about adoption. A support place for those who have suffered through adoption. IT IS NOT THE JOB OF US HERE TO SUPPORT GREG. He is coming here by choice. BTW, thank you, thank you, thank you for being the evidence of what is was saying to Greg earlier. You are more than happy to offer support and understanding to Greg, the poor ‘infertile’ regardless of the fact that 1) he is partly responsible for triggering this post which relates to an earlier conversation on Twitter and 2) he has managed to turn this whole thing into being about ALL infertiles, not just the select group this post was targeted at and you have poured all over him to give him support and care while jumping in and attacking everyone else. THANK YOU! Even in our own places where the infertiles make it all about poor little them against a marginalised group, they will STILL get the support, sympathy and understanding.
                  Wow. Just wow.

                  • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 11:19 am |

                    I don’t think I’ve ever asked for your support because I never have needed it. As far as us getting the support, sympathy and understanding I disagree it’s gotten here. Not that it matters. Plus as you’ve pointed out this isn’t the place to get it.

                    The reason I make this out to be about all infertiles is because this goes beyond the adoption community into the donor conceived community. They shouldn’t be ignored as well.

                    • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:26 pm |

                      Greg, you are getting it in spades from Poll. The fact you can’t see it is further testimony to your blindness.

                    • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm |

                      I haven’t asked for anything from Poll. Can I help it if Poll is defending me?

                    • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:24 am |

                      I’m here because of the New Republic article.

                      If this was a private blog for people to vent, the author probably shouldn’t have mentioned it in a national article.

                      I certainly wouldn’t have bothered you if I thought it was a support group. If Greg is a twitter friend and you were having an argument then I’m sorry for interfering.

                      I do wonder if it is healthy for him to be here, though, and be exposed to some of the statements I read that generalized about those who suffer from infertility.

                • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 8:49 am |

                  I see what you mean and I’ve encountered those people in the adoption community. They are usually people that have an extreme pain that they can’t see past. I feel bad for them and learn to take it with a grain of salt (JL is a great example).

              • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm |

                “I don’t want to see them become a target for the pro adoption reform movement. I want to see them supported and be able to work through something they’ll live with forever.”

                Honestly, I never even heard of this movement until a little while ago and I’m plugged into both gay and feminist causes. I would characterize it as very politically marginalized.

                Society and people will always have strong opinions about sex and reproduction. (Just look at the reaction to gay marriage.)

                In the end, in terms of sex and reproduction, people just need to think about what they believe is ethical and go with that.

                Look at the gay population. Society has all sorts of opinions. But people shouldn’t let those opinions affect their own life choices unless they think it is relevant to their own personal belief system.

                Do you see what i mean?

                • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 7:53 am |

                  Again with the gay mentions and you wonder why I asked you! Doh!

                  • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:29 am |

                    Because it doesn’t matter who I fuck or what I have between my legs.

                    My biological sex and my gender and my sexual preference are not relevant for a intellectual discussion.

                    I am not arguing from the basis of my personal experience.

                    But I find it interesting that you are so interested.

                    Why are you curious? That’s a real question – I genuinely want to know why you care.

                    I don’t care if you are straight, bi, gay, or whatever.

                    Or I should say, it’s not just I don’t care, it’s not interesting because it seems irrelevant to the discussion.

                    A lesbian woman can get pregnant. A straight woman can get pregnant. A bi woman can get pregnant. Why would it matter if you were straight or gay for the sake of this discussion?

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 12:37 pm |

        “I am well acquainted with trauma”

        I do understand that. I deeply respect your experience.

        Note – I do not say I tritely “sympathize.” Sympathy is too facile. I do not even say I empathize, although I do. What is more important is that I respect your personal experience.

        I want to remove all coercion from reproductive choices and sexual experiences. I do not want any women to experience coercion and be subjected to emotional or bodily trauma.

        Respect. It’s much more valuable then sympathy.

        • Laurel Ehrichs | September 15, 2013 at 11:23 pm |

          “Respect. It’s much more valuable then sympathy.”

          And the industry knows that and exploits it. They are the ones who talk respectfully and lead a conversation that looks completely respectful while the whole time stacking words in manipulations, making plans that exploit. Fuck respect. Talk about the elephant in the room. That I can get behind. Respect in the adoption industry is exploitation.

          • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:30 am |

            That’s obviously not real respect. That’s manipulation and a profound lack of respect for human rights.

            • Laurel Ehrichs | September 16, 2013 at 12:37 am |

              Thus, why that word holds no water here. Real words, complex plural words, that means something.

29. Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:38 am |

    Also – I hope you (1) will please stop calling people “infertiles”? It’s dehumanizing and reduces women to their reproductive organs and their bodily disease. It’s like calling somebody a “birther.” Not cool.

    and (2) the majority of people who are infertile have absolutely no interest in adoption. If you look on any infertility message board, the number of people who decide to adopt is tiny. Like 1-2%, if that.

    Gay people also adopt. But many gay people do not adopt. Would you single out gay people for being gay and talk about gayness and your lack of sympathy towards the gay community in your post?

    Would you go on about how you can’t understand and cannot be expected to understand why gay people would get upset about civil rights violations? (The experience of being gay obviously has no intrinsic connection to adoptions, just as the medical condition of infertility no intrinsic connection to adoption.)

    3) I read the New Republic article about reproductive rights that linked to this blog. It sounded like the blog would be about reproductive rights and feminism. But this sort of language and criticism of other women’s bodies is just not cool. and it’s not feminist. And it’s dehumanizing. That’s my say.

    • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:29 pm |

      1) I can totally get down on that. Point taken. Will concede that language matters and would be quite willing to use more acceptable terminology. Your preference?
      2) Agreed. This post however, happens to be targeting the one’s that DO fit within that category and do use the pain of infertility as cause to absolve them of any ethical requirements when it comes to adoption. That it is a small number via percent does not remove an attitude that exists. I mean, if we are to follow that line of reasoning then the whole purpose of this blog is moot as only a small percentage of adoptions are form mothers who voluntary relinquish to domestic infant placements. Or that only a small percentage of unplanned pregnancies result in relinquishment.
      I have a addressed the issue of Gay rights and adoption and I don’t believe they belong in the same sentences: http://www.adoptionbirthmothers.com/all-wrong-defense-of-marriage-act-and-adoption-dont-belong-together/ My feelings on Gay people adopting are the same as people who have infertility adopting or people who think they are saving a child adopting or people who feel they are called by god to adopt or anyone else.
      3) You assumed wrong. This is a birth mothers blog primarily..more than anything is it my truth, my feelings, and the way I see things though my eyes as a birthmother. Sometimes it is not pretty, but that’s the truth for me. ..MOTL also addresses the rights of adoptees, birth mothers, the grief, the unethical practices of the adoption industry and anything else I might happen to find compelling.I actually don’t touch the issues of feminism all that much; it’s just not my thing. But I can understand how this particular post might happen to not be the best way to be introduced to the other issues I do write about. This post happens to be a rant. Sometimes I do that. Sometimes that needs to be done. I don’t bother getting all PC. I find that worrying about being PC is very confining at times. I suspect that you might find other posts more to your liking if you choose to go there, but it still will not be a feminist and reproductive rights blog.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 12:49 pm |

        Language: Don’t collapse it into one word. You remove the “people from it.”

        1)For example: “People who experience infertility..”.

        2) You’re disrespecting a category of people. Use specific examples of specific people.

        It’s like someone saying “I was raped by a person of colour, therefore I will make assumptions about all people of colour and their lives and their culture.” It’s wrong.

        It’s as if you said “some gay people adopt so I’m going to talk about gay culture and make assumptions about the experience of being gay causing XYZ.

        3) Your blog, your choice.

        My take on oppression and inequalities: Feminists moved forward when they respected the experiences of other women. Feminists did not move forward when they belittled and disrespected other women’s experiences. This post, in my opinion, was disrespectful.

        And I do appreciate that you listened. I would not have posted if I thought you couldn’t hear some of my response to your post.

        • admin | September 14, 2013 at 1:09 pm |

          The day that adoption exploitation and the plight of the birth mothers becomes a true feminist issue I will rejoice so loudly that the non exisitant gods of wherever and who ever anyone has ever chosen will hear.

          I think perhaps that is another post however. Though I know some other people have tackled it and done it well. There have been many attempts before much more respectfully to show adoption relinquishment as a feminist issue. But I can tell you that other women who consider themselves feminists have been very unwilling to see adoption as an issue because it fits all to well into other concepts of choice. Its is seen as reproductive choice.. it is seen as an adoption to build a family, should one desire. And I dare say that too many of the people speaking publicly about feminism are adoptive parents themselves. Same, often, with the media.
          If I have to be the bad guy and pull some shock and awe sometimes, then I shall…. but I do welcome your point of view.. and are quite open to other ways of achieving results.

          • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 1:30 pm |

            If you talked from a point of coercion/ bodily integrity/ bodily choice and parental rights — you would have many feminists who would ally with you.

            Radical feminists, in particular, sympathize with the lack of economic and social choices that lead to infant adoption. They also support the parental rights of people with little economic means.

            But if you want to speak in public, in a disrespectful manner about women’s sexual choices or bodily experiences (not getting pregnant young enough/ blaming women for coming down with a medical condition) or countenance such in your comments, you are in a bad position to politically ally with feminists.

            Maybe you need to work out these feelings and vent. It is what it is.

            Instead of concentrating on coercive situations and unethical behaviour, you edge into a tone that is disrespectful of other women’s medical issues. You also project quite a bit.

            Instead of referring to a specific examples, you project in abstract ways that “infertiles” must have coercive and oppressive “attitudes” caused by their “infertility.”

            That ain’t gonna fly with feminists.

          • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 7:42 pm |

            “If I have to be the bad guy and pull some shock and awe sometimes, then I shall…. but I do welcome your point of view.. and are quite open to other ways of achieving results.”

            In political and social movements it is unwise to gratuitously alienate potential allies.

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 2:01 am |

            “and are quite open to other ways of achieving results.”

            Advocate for paid maternity leave.

            Scapegoating “infertiles” won’t do anything to help low-income women keep their babies, but paid maternity leave sure as hell will.

            Also- advocate for health care insurance that covers abortion. Advocate for the government to pay for abortion for low income women. Fund raise to support young women who wish to access abortion, but cannot afford it.

            Advocate against those horrible pro-life clinics that draw in young pregnant women with the false promise of support, because they don’t want them to have abortions. and then these clinics try to get young women to adopt.

            Fundraise and advocate to build alternative clinics that will economically support poor and young women who want to keep and parent their babies. Also- fund raise for therapists who can help these women when they are pregnant and depressed or stressed.

30. Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:50 am |

    “Maybe you need to accept your own choices and realize that someone else shouldn’t have to pay for the choice YOU made because they are younger and still fertile. I hate to get all Darwinian on you, but did you ever think that MAYBE you can’t have kids because the weak are suppose to die out? Not to be a bitch, but the end of the line might be purposeful? No? Not buying it?”

    Wow. WOW. I didn’t read the whole post.

    How would you feel if someone said the same thing about your situation when you relinquished?

    I’m sure people have said those things to you (or similar things) about your relinquishment. How did it feel? How did you react?

    Don’t become the people that you hate.

    • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:39 pm |

      Yes, they have. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone said “you choose to spread your legs” or “you made your bed” or a whole bunch of other crass bits. This post goes into some of them; http://www.adoptionbirthmothers.com/birthmothers-cake-what-people-really-think-about-the-act-of-selfless-love-called-adoption-2/ It’s fun stuff.

      Again, this post was meant to be mean. Its a rant. It acknowledges that. Its mot a warm and fuzzy understanding sing kumbaya thing. And I do reserve the right to sometimes have to dish it out. It’s not directed at a PERSON, as comments made to me particularly are. Its represent an Attitude.. and if someone happens to have that attitude and finds that it reaches them personally, then I am not responsible for how they choose to feel. When someone is cruel to me; I can choose how that makes me feel feel. I can choose to allow those comments to affect me and how I react. And if it does not apply, or they are way off base, then I can choose to shrug it off. Normally, if I find that I AM really upset about something, then there is reason for me to examine that more fully and see if perhaps they have struck a chord even if I HATE them for saying it.
      Sometimes, I choose to apply the same and invite others to do the same. If they do or not is up to them. Meanwhile, there are a whole slew of other mothers who have relinquished who know EXACTLY what I mean and really, I write for them.. for us.. for my population. Maybe you see that as awful, but I see it as a important responsibility and that someone needs to do it.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 1:03 pm |

        ” It’s not directed at a PERSON, as comments made to me particularly are. Its represent an Attitude.”

        Do African Americans and gay people have an “attitude”?

        You are stereotyping people in your language. “Infertiles” have an “attitude.”

        I just find that kind of blaming language used towards you disgusting. I also find it disgusting when it is used towards a whole other category of people.

        I don’t find it awful. I think you’re so traumatized that you are conflating things that are not causal. (The experience of infertility does not = adoption. It most definitely doesn’t mean infant adoption. It certainly does not equal coercive, unethical behaviour.)

        Just as being gay or being African American does not equal an attitude, it’s wrong to assume that a medical condition is a cause of unethical behaviour.

        But, again, your blog, your choice.

      • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 1:51 pm |

        I understand this is your blog and you can do what you want. But why does it have to be either a nasty rant or something warm and fuzzy? There is a way to get a point across without it being soft or nasty. If the idea is that you went to get through to more people being nasty still won’t get through to closed minded people who won’t hear you no matter what. The best course of action IMO is to be direct but at the same time not nasty and take shots at others. There were a bunch of unnecessary comments in this blog post that I didn’t respond to because they weren’t worth addressing. Had you not included them you still would have gotten the same point across. Again your blog you can do with it as you wish but it’s just a suggestion.

        • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:23 pm |

          Honestly I think they are acting out of trauma.

          “Infertiles” are the people they blame for the cause of their own trauma.

          I don’t know why more attention isn’t given to the coercive situation and how it may be alleviated.

          • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:25 pm |

            It’s like a white women who gets raped by a homeless black man.

            She blames all black men, even though she shouldn’t and it has nothing to do with being black or homeless. See what I mean?

            It’s not ok to characterize all homeless people as dangerous or rapists. But they can’t untangle it in their own minds.

            • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:27 pm |

              And it’s not ok to say “homelessness causes people to be rapists.”

              Or “homelessness causes an attitude that leads to rape.”

              But, again, my 25 cent analysis is that they are too traumatized by their experience to conceptualize this.

              In their minds, the “infertile” is the victimizer. And infertility must cause people to be evil and oppressive and entitled.

          • Laurel Ehrichs | September 15, 2013 at 9:35 pm |

            “Honestly I think they are acting out of trauma.”

            Correct me if I am wrong, but in all of your comments, haven’t you been the one crowing the loudest about not lumping people into a group?

            • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:34 am |

              True enough. I’m being a 2 cent therapist here.

              Trying to understand some of the extreme rhetoric. See the vampire comment above for an example. And the “infertiles stole my children” stuff.

              Substitute Black, for example: “the blacks stole my children.”

              That’s how it sounds to me.

              • Laurel Ehrichs | September 16, 2013 at 12:49 am |

                There is extreme rhetoric. That’s the nature of social change. We aren’t a cohesive opinion.

                Consider this. Each person who frequents this blog that is a mother of origin is either of the baby scoop era, and was exploited by society in terrible ways. “The Girls Who Went Away” Ann Fessler.

                Or they are from the post baby scoop era where choice exists, but is manipulated to an extreme art form by the adoption industry. But despite that, the people who raise our children and like us as people when matched before the birth of our children, then go and slam shut the adoption after false promises of openness. Betrayed by what were honest to goodness, seemingly good people that we “chose” but in hindsight were marketed, placed into consideration way before actual counseling happened by their own choice. Almost everything that was said by them was a lie or half truth, and then at the end when the child is now an adult, they have been manipulated to resent where they came from.

                It’s not solely the industry that perpetuates this. It’s not solely the government that doesn’t protect family preservation with programs. There is a great deal of manipulation created by potential adoptive parents suffering infertility. That create by their own actions terrible acts that cause and perpetuate the ptsd after relinquishment in the mother of origin.

                Each one has a devastating story, and grouped together it becomes the reason for social change in Australia and elsewhere.

31. Poll | September 14, 2013 at 3:06 am |

    “And I will not apologize for expecting other people to grow the fuck up and deal with it. Make the best of it and move on,”

    omg I can’t look away. This is like a car crash.

    Hey, my beloved parent died suddenly. Don’t tell me to shut the fuck up and move on. If I’m grieving – I get to grieve my dead parent as long as I need to do so.

    In the end, it’s none of your concern how long people need to grieve a dead parent. Or anything else.

    Your issues about adoption are not about a medical condition. They are about adoption. Obviously — but whatever. Your blog, your opinion. It’s my choice to expose myself to this obnoxious bullshit.

    • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:45 pm |

      Are you purposely picking and choosing little bits to react to without reading the whole thing and letting the thoughts perhaps process a bit? The comment thread might be helpful too.
      It’s not about the grief.. the grief over fertility loss is supported, its the actions that are rationalized by the grief that lead a person to feel entitled to take another person’s child and give that pain to another human being that is questioned and that is where the “grow the fuck up and deal” is applied. My mom DID died.. so I don’t get to take another person’s mother because my kids deserve a grandmother. do I? No I get to grieve and deal with a life and no mother. My kids will never know what having their grandmother would be like.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 1:09 pm |

        It sounded like you wanted to control and criticize other people’s feelings and traumatic reaction.

        FYI – when dealing with traumatized people. Don’t tell somebody to make the best of it and move on. They will move on when they are ready to move on, and in their own way, their own time.

        How would you react to that person if they told you the same thing about your relinquishment?

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 1:11 pm |

        You weren’t talking about actions or adoption

        – you were talking about moving on and “Just get over it.”

        My beloved father died suddenly. I’ll get over it in my own way, my own time. Don’t tell me to just “get over it.”

      • Greg | September 14, 2013 at 1:37 pm |

        Your missing the fact that the grief over infertility is not being supported. If it was you wouldn’t have people making irrational decisions impacting other lives. We need to work as a society getting to a point where that doesn’t happen.

        • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 2:21 pm |

          This is true — it is not supported in the popular culture. Just read any on-line article about infertility. The comments aren’t about sympathy or support.

          It’s all about criticizing people for waiting too long, or blaming people for their own troubles.

          Married women who could not get pregnant were often accused of being witches. In the early modern world, they were some of the most likely to be accused and killed for “being witches.”

          That attitude has not gone away; it’s just altered a bit into a pretend sympathy and a lot of blame towards the woman for not getting pregnant.

          In modern society it’s easy to beat up on people who experience infertility. Society will support you in that attitude. That doesn’t make it right.

        • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 7:57 am |

          Greg, because this ISN’T the place to look for that. Same as a rapist walking into a group of rape victims and asking them to help support other rapists so they don’t rape again. Gag! (And I say that as a rape victim!)

          • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 8:56 am |

            I’m not looking for that. This isn’t about me and my personal situation. I have my own support system for that. I’m here in this conversation to help bring awareness on infertility and at the same time what is driving the demand in adoption. Others don’t have the support system I do.

            I see the point in your analogy but I hope you aren’t comparing PAPs to rapists. I believe rapists are lost causes who are sick people who should be castrated. I believe we can help infertiles in supporting their pain rather than enable them to potentially hurt others.

            • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 3:34 pm |

              Yes, actually I am. Being raped was bad enough, losing my child was a million times worse and was like a rape only of everything. Soul and body.
              But as I said, coming to the victims is not going to work. Come here to learn what is happening sure but why hurt people just to find support for your precious screwed up infertiles? (When I say that I mean the select group going after adoption, not all)
              You just brushed past that analogy to voice your objection without actually stopping to think about the consequences for your actions. You won’t get what you want from us. I have told you what needs to happen but you are still looking to us to fix it but without offering empathy or sympathy for the hurt that has been caused already.

              • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 7:06 pm |

                I don’t agree with that comparison but as a rape victim you would know better. Again I saw your point.

                I understand that you have been hurt by adoption and hate infertiles. You have every right to do so. But your lack of empathy towards infertiles and looking down upon them is just continuing to contribute to the problem in the demand in DIA. Don’t come crying when the same issues continue. Because people like yourself contribute to the problem whether you admit it or not.

                • myst1998 | September 15, 2013 at 9:44 pm |

                  Thanks. You just confirmed how much of a douche bag you really are. You have condemned, judged, and put words in my mouth. I have never said anything about hating ‘infertiles’ – it would be very difficult if that were the case given my best friend suffers from that, but hey, don’t let truth get in the way of a good bashing. You are a nasty, vindictive, bitter little man who has suffered something awful but is out to make others pay. Oh god I have tried and tried to help you understand what it is we are saying here since you are the one continuing to sprout crap but you don’t actually care. All you care about is your pain. You accuse us of not caring, dude, look in the freaking mirror! No, I don’t feel much empathy for you right now because of the way YOU have treated everyone here.

                  As for contributing to DIA, prey tell? I have personally stopped several babies from being lost to adoption and I continue to help. You do not know me or what my role is in my life so you really need to STFU as you like to tell others.

                  You can dish it Greg but you sure as hell can’t take it. All I can say is after your display of pathetic behaviour here is if you were unleashed on some poor child, you would screw them up for life. Go ahead and be part of the DIA. You didn’t need me to be honest with you to do that. You are a liar and a dishonest human being. I feel sad your wife has to put up with the loser that you are. You have nothing but your words here to thank for this overview I have of you by the way. Keep heaping your crap on me, go on, makes you feel better, but at the end of the day you will still be the miserable man that you are. Take some freaking accountability for your crap and go the fuck away. Loser.

                  • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:45 am |

                    Greg,

                    you are probably triggering their trauma & PTSD. They don’t have the emotional reserves. But you need empathy right now because you are going through a traumatic situation.

                    But you are the “threat” in their mind. Trauma heightens and over-sensitizes the threat mechanism for people.

                  • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 10:10 am |

                    I feel bad for your best friend and hope they get the support they need. Having a best friend going through infertility means little because youre right i dont know you and how youve interacted with her but im guessing just based on our interactions. More importantly I hope you receive the support you deserve. I apologize for upsetting you and taking it too far. I don’t blame you for having the impression of me as a person that you do. I wish you the best moving forward in your life.

          • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:39 am |

            No one here want to adopt.

            Someone who is suffering from infertility is not a criminal because they have a medical disability. God why is that so hard for you people to get. It’s not a hard concept.

            But, yes, Greg, this is probably not a good place for you for obvious reasons. They don’t have enough emotional reserves to give you empathy.

            You are the “threat” in their mind simply because you suffer from a disease. Trauma heightens and over-sensitizes the threat mechanism for people.

            Do you see what I mean? You are triggering them.

            Triggering their trauma. They may have PTSD and the mere diagnosis of infertility for you may act as a trigger.

            • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 10:22 am |

              I’m not so much looking for empathy as I am to bring awareness. Some get it to an extent others are lost. But I get why they would be. They’ve been hurt by people in my community.

              I agree that as someone who may or may not pursue DIA, I am a threat. I accept that and make the best of it.

32. Poll | September 14, 2013 at 3:38 am |

    “but it wasn’t about a desire to HURT others. It was a desire to say, on behalf of us who HAVE BEEN HURT by such attitudes, what we have been all wanting to say.”

    whoa, now you’re saying that infertility is the reason you are hurt? Are you serious? In my parent’s generation, everybody who adopted did so with a 3rd child or whatnot. They were clearly fertile. I don’t know anybody who is “infertile” who adopted.

    I’m not friends with Dan Savage — but I do know of gay people who adopted, who I suppose are technically “infertile.”

    That’s JUST like saying “gayness” is the reason you were hurt. Ridiculous!!! You were hurt because you felt you had no ability to make the free choice to parent. Not because a disease that has nothing to do with you. You didn’t put up a child for adoption because somebody was infertile.

    You called the adoption agency because you felt you lacked CHOICES. You needed economic and social support from the STATE. You should be blaming the state for not being socialist enough to reach out with support and support pregnant mothers in need. You should be advocating for social systems that result in real choices for pregnant women, not raging against a category of people who have a medical disability.

    Some people are infertile because of cancer. Did CANCER cause you pain? Do you blame CANCER for ADOPTION? dude, please.

    And what is likely to cause real change — advocating for improvements that can help pregnant mothers? Or being insensitive about a medical condition?

    • TAO | September 15, 2013 at 10:33 am |

      Poll said: “whoa, now you’re saying that infertility is the reason you are hurt? Are you serious? In my parent’s generation, everybody who adopted did so with a 3rd child or whatnot. They were clearly fertile. I don’t know anybody who is “infertile” who adopted. ”

      The link below is to an adoption history project – you should take the time to understand the history of adoption before assuming your circle is/was indicative of the larger adoption arena.

      Quote from link below: “…Although childless couples have probably always been interested in adoption, the practice of giving preference to infertile couples evolved only in the twentieth century and was most pronounced around 1950. By then, infertility was so closely tied to adoption that applying to raise someone else’s child was considered an admission of reproductive failure. Adoption and “sterility,” as infertility was typically called before the 1960s, were practically synonymous.

      There were also practical reasons for the close association between infertility and adoption. At a time when demand exceeded supply for healthy white infants, many professionals believed that limiting the pool of potential adopters to infertile couples was the fairest method of allocating children. It was not unusual for agencies to exclude from consideration couples who had or were capable of having children of their “own,” even if they had experienced multiple miscarriages or were suffering from “secondary” infertility (the inability to conceive after having one child).”

      http://pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/topics/infertility.htm

33. Poll | September 14, 2013 at 3:48 am |

    “The grief that IS invalid…”

    You all are worse then the anti-abortion crazycats who are so judgemental about everything.

    People get to grieve any fucking thing they want to fucking grieve. People experience trauma about all sorts of things. LIttle things can push people over the edge into PTSD.

    No grief is illegitimate because it is an emotional reaction that is not controlled very well by conscious behaviour. If somebody gets pushed over the edge by the death of a cat or a loud noise — that’s simply what happened to that person.

    If this doesn’t conform to your judgemental expectations of how the brain ought to behave you can just fuck off.

    • admin | September 14, 2013 at 12:47 pm |

      Same response as before. The grief is not the issue.. its the actions that are rationalized that are.

      • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 1:19 pm |

        That doesn’t come across very well in the post.

        Also – I can’t read the comment section w/ out being horrified. There’s so much judgement about women’s sexual and reproductive choices. And it’s so disrespectful about the experience of trauma and people are also disregarding and blaming women for not being able to have children. (ie – If a woman didn’t have a baby before she was 28 it’s her own fault.)

        Many in the comment thread disregard how the lack of choices in the realm of reproduction leads to trauma. Many comments also disregard the lack of control many woman have over their own reproductive choices. In the end, women are being blamed for a medical condition. They are being told it was their “choice” and their own “fault.”

        To put it simply – that’s fucked up. I know a woman who had cancer and her ovaries are not producing good eggs. Is it her fault she didn’t get pregnant before she got cancer in her 20s? Of course not! This is the same with all of these conditions that led to infertility. Medical conditions are not the “fault” of people.

        I really just can’t read the whole thing.

        • admin | September 14, 2013 at 2:39 pm |

          I think you are judging a whole blog and my opinions based on one post which is hardly the body of work.. There are over 700 more…

          • Poll | September 15, 2013 at 1:55 am |

            The following is a real political suggestion & strategy:

            Perhaps I am missing it, I don’t see anything on your advocacy for these two things:

            1) Paid maternity leave. In Canada women get paid maternity leave for a full year. This would, I think, obviously help the coercion. In your job you would have probably got a 95% top up. That means that for a year you would pull 95% of your salary while you stayed home with your child.

            2) A socialized single-payer health care system, like Canada. Or at least some support of marginal health care reforms, such as Obamacare, which mandates that pregnancy is covered. I know people that are going to try to get pregnant just as soon as they can sign up this October, because of the new pregnancy coverage.

            These things make a real political difference. Blaming teh “infertiles” is simply blaming a easy scapegoat. What’s hard is analyzing the structual situation and working to make REAL change that will affect REAL people.

            My partner mentioned that the political realities being what they are in the States, you might see making “infertiles” into scapegoats and attempting to shame them into not adopting will correct the situation.

            But that is not a real plan. Real practical and political change involves thinking about policy and doing the hard work of political change. The people in the States that advocated for Obamacare will make a real difference for many individuals in the area of pregnancy coverage. It will allow many women to feel comfortable knowing that they will not have to go into debt because of the cost of the labor. They will get their pregnancy covered by health insurance and will not feel the economic pressure that they might have felt.

            Just think about what would happen if feminists were able to get a good paid maternity leave policy passed.

            Or, Quebec has very low cost day-care. Think about how low-cost state-funded day care would change the lives of women and make it more likely that women feel able to care for their babies.

            *Enlarging the benefits of medicaid.

            *State funding for mothers and children.

            *Good public education in poor neighbourhoods.

            *State funded health care plans for low-income pregnant women. California has a good system for this. Or had–not sure what happened in the budget cuts in the last few years. But these are the things that pregnant women need that feminists should be on the front lines advocating for.

        • Anonymous | September 15, 2013 at 8:42 am |

          That’s right Poll, you didn’t read the whole thing. I said something about people with “known medical conditions”. And I didn’t make up the 20-28 year old rule. Mother Nature did. Sorry she hasn’t adjusted her rules for inflation and economic duress.

          • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 11:09 am |

            I’m not sure if you also caught my point about toxins in the environment impacting fertility. That is a factor as well that can’t be ignored.

      • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:12 am |

        I don’t think Poll bothered to read the entire post. They are just picking and choosing bits to be outraged over. And comparing it to totally irrelevant issues. Sigh. So typical in adoption.

34. cb | September 14, 2013 at 9:51 am |

    One thing I’ll say is this, if I never hear the word “empathy” again, it will be too soon lol.

    • Poll | September 14, 2013 at 12:05 pm |

      If you don’t have empathy for others, don’t expect it for yourself.

      Karma.

      • Myst | September 15, 2013 at 2:14 am |

        Yes, you should take your own advice Poll and stop preaching to others when you have no clue as to the context of what is meant in a comment. Hypocrite.

      • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 1:55 am |

        There’s no such thing as Karma.

        • cb | September 16, 2013 at 6:06 am |

          I’m sick of the actual word, Poll, mainly because I think it gets used incorrectly half the time.

35. cb | September 14, 2013 at 4:47 pm |

    I’m sick of the actual word, Poll, mainly because I think it gets used incorrectly half the time.

    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Empathy_vs_Sympathy

    http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-difference-between-sympathy-and-empathy.htm

36. JavaMonkey | September 15, 2013 at 8:38 am |

    Just thought I’d chime in because nobody is commenting on this post (LOL).

    I agree that infertility grief is not as well supported as it should be. I think many people in AdotionLand DO recognize and support that grieving. I know that I do. But, the average Joe / Jane on the street says, “Why Don’t You Just Adopt?” And that is where it all goes to hell… So, how can we change Joe / Jane so that they don’t say shit like that? How can we silence the “You Can Just Adopt” chorus? How can we change the uninformed public perception that adoption cures infertility? How can we change the public perception that adoption is all unicorns farting rainbows all day long?

    Case in point: Not long ago, I was talking to a younger woman about my kids, and mentioned that I wish I had started earlier in life so that I could have a larger family. It didn’t take ten seconds for her to ask me, “Why wouldn’t you just adopt?” When I told her that I wouldn’t adopt because I am adopted and I know what living that life is like, she looked at me like I had grown horns on my head. Because, how dare I say anything negative about adoption, right?

    So, although I am not infertile (just getting older) – I recognize the truth that we (as a society) don’t support infertility grieving the way we should. The uneducated masses hear infertility and shout “Adoption!” or “Fostering!”, as if these things will make the infertility go away. They don’t. They just add a whole new level of suckyness onto an already bad situation. Hearing that over and over fucks with the heads of infertile people in the worst way possible. They are pushed to become the people who have adoption fundraisers. They are pushed to become the people who pray for a family to be destroyed so that they can have a baby. They become adoptive parents like mine, who (after getting what they so deeply desired) realize that they are still infertile… and now they’re raising someone else’s fucking kid on top of it. Do you know what it’s like to hear “I wish I never had you” from your adoptive mother? I do.

    Ok, I rambled a bit there. Back on track.

    Does that make unethical adopters blameless? Oh HELL NO. We all make our own choices, and reap the glory or consequence. I do not hold them blameless at all. My only point in all of this is that if we can stop the public chorus of “Just Adopt!”, and if we can change the public perception that adoption is a perfect solution for everyone, then we can get to the point where infertile couples hear “I’m so sorry” instead of “Hey, I have a solution”. Adoption is a demand driven industry, and has been from the beginning. It is only by changing perceptions on the demand side that we can change the realities of adoption.

    • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 10:16 am |

      This is probably the best comment I this blog post. I agree 100% with the entire post. I could not have put it better. Well done!

37. myst1998 | September 15, 2013 at 5:57 pm |

    Okay so I am just about done with the ignorance and sheer stupidity that is being displayed by both Poll and Greg. So this is my final comment to you both.

    Poll: Have you not heard the term coercion?? In adoption this has NOTHING to do with finances or a woman not being supported. In some cases women with support still end up losing their children to adoption. Usually to “teh infertiles” as you love to call them. Adoption agencies in the USA are well in the know of how to market for a baby. Yes, they actually state that. They actively market for babies. AS if they are a commodity. They offer mothers college funds in exchange for their children, tell them they wn’t make it, basically brainwash them, isolate them from their support networks and use their love for their children as a hook to coerce them to place “if you love your child you want what is best, you have to place” etc and it gets so much worse from there… seriously the stories of coercion and deceit are astounding. You want to alk about feminism? Lets start with basic HUMAN RIGHTS shall we??? A woman who is pregnant is at her most vulnerable. Sure it would be nice if all those things you mention in other comments such as child care, better social support structures etc would be put in place and made available BUT how will that change anything?? It can’t and wont’t because adoption and its industry is like NOTHING you have ever witnessed and will deny a mother to her basic human rights before she even learns of these support structures. Information is withheld, consents are taken based on lies and fraud, unethical practises are used to get women to sign and in many cases, mothers are threatened with all sorts of things if they don’t. Bah, your talk of feminism is crap, you wouldn’t have the first clue of REAL feminism if it hit you in the face. Adoption has been anti feminism for years and yet here you are spouting a few things about what WE should be doing when you are contributing to an anti-feminist society and allowing women to lose their basic human rights. What a joke. When I said you were uneducated, I wasn’t meaning that as a snarky comment, I really mean it. Your comment alluding to the fact women only lose their children due to mental health confirms that. I cannot believe you would stoop THAT low. Mental Health actually doesn’t feature in it except to make up untruths to steal a child. And I use the phrase “steal a child” because that is what unethical adoption practises are doing; outright stealing children. It is no different to state sanctioned abduction and has nothing to do with a mother’s ability to be a fit mother (most of us have gone on to have children and no questioning of our fitness to be mothers because there was never any issue in the first place). You may not like the facts but they are actually solid. Infertile couples are currently the deamnd creators for womb wet infants. Most fertile people I know who are adopting are looking to orphanages and foster care. They are NOT involved in the Domestic Infant trade. And that is why you cannot understand because there is so much going on that you need to actually get your head out of la la land where you are thinking a few supports here and there are going to help and get your feet on solid ground where the shit is happening. You need to take accounability for your own role in a society that abuses human rights let alone feminist rights! As I said, EDUCATE yourself and then come and have a real conversation with me. Until then, run along and troll someone else. Because you are trolling here. If you were not, you would have learned something by reading more of Claudia’s blog and then looking for more blogs to read by mothers (natural mothers who have suffered through adoption los) and adult adoptees fighting for adoption reform. Until you have done that, we have nothing left to say to each other because you are unaware and choosing to stay unaware of the true picture going on here.

    Greg: you are going round in circles. I give you an option of how people with infertility can be helped based on my limited understanding and you keep harping on about the same thing. I get that you want to help your fellow infertile couples, and that is great. I get that you want to be educated about unethical adoption so you are not party to it, again, great. However, your approach to this whole issue has been way off base. You have alienated yourself and basically you come off looking like an arsehole. Sorry, but you do. Claudia has tried with you but you keep going round in circles with her, same with other commenters. You say contradicting things in your comments and you say you have empathy but just as you accuse us of not, I call BULLSHIT on you as well. This post was right on the money about a lot that happens in adoption and you didn’t like it. Fair enough. But THIS is not a blog for infertiles to mollycoddled or made to feel better. This is CLAUDIA’S blog about things that relate to HER, HER EXPERIENCE, and issues SHE is passionate. Here’s an idea, if you want to “help” fellow infertiles, why don’t YOU start a blog dedicated to helping them and stop putting that burden on us?? Again, this is the wrong place and you keep flogging the beast over and over again expecting a different result. We are happy to converse logically and sensibly with you shoudl you wish to learn but not when you are trying to make us accountable for something that is frankly not our responsibility. Just as you say you and your fellow infertiles are not responsible for us (which no one has ever seriously said you are; we have only used examples when infertiles are hunting for a child, any child to fill their hole, of what their alternatives are and you have completely missed the point, as usual.), we are not responsible for your pain or even how to help other infertile couples. Set up a charity or fund or something that allows them to get counselling and help but DON’T come looking to us!!

    • Greg | September 15, 2013 at 7:24 pm |

      Myst,

      You continue to be lost. Your option that they should just deal with it or obligate themselves to help entitled expectant mothers just doesn’t work. It doesn’t address the issue and just exposes your ignorance on infertility. All it does enable people’s poor decisions but it does solve your sides problem so I know why you suggested it (self serving suggestion). I’ve always been alone here as an outsider but the reality is unless you are an adoptee or birth/first mother you are an outsider on this board and that’s fine. This is not a board that will ever be friendly to outsiders nor should it be. BTW, I do have a blog that is on infertilty. It’s goal is to bring awareness and educate ignorant (uniformed not stupid) people like yourself on infertility.

      I wish you the best and hope that those people in your life that are dealing with infertility have other people in their lives that are more supportive and empathetic than you are.

      • J.L. | September 16, 2013 at 2:54 am |

        No greg, sadly it is you who is lost, and in more ways than one. You really need to get your moral compass fixed, because sadly it’s extremely broken. You can argue all you want, ad nauseum, you’ll never win with us because we have our collective experiences, and a mass of other experiences, the knowledge we’ve gained through research, that has given us the wisdom to know what we speak of, and what is the truth and what are the lies when it comes to what you so desperately want justified so that you and those who have the same problem of a broken moral compass, can all feel justified to do whatever you want when it comes to how you want to live your life, in this instance, as far as it goes with fertility, and acquiring children. The idea that you as people get to decide what’s right and what’s wrong, all subjective to what you think and feel, and your personal desires, just proves that you people are morally void. Truth and rightness are indisputable, they aren’t subjective. You either accept them as they are, respect them, and live by them, or you don’t, and if you don’t, you are guilty, and will lose far more than you realize because your selfishness blinds you.

        Like another of your ilk pointed out, most of us suffer not just from the injustices, the abuses, the losses done to us, we suffer from PTSD related to it, and so yes, people like you coming into a place where we talk this stuff out, to belittle us, to interrogate us, to insult us, to abuse us, to demean us, is not only triggering, it’s revelation of the blackness of your own character. Have some respect for us, we’re victims of others, not ourselves. And until you do, don’t expect much if any, respect from us, especially when you keep wielding a literary dagger and taking stabs at us just because you think we’re wrong. Newsflash, just because you think what you do, and feel what you do, doesn’t mean you’re right or that others have to agree with you. You have PROVEN yourself to be quite abusive. So really, you’re the one who should seek professional help, some counseling, and I highly recommend Jesus Christ.

        • Greg | September 16, 2013 at 10:31 am |

          I have respect for everyone commenting here except yourself. Once you belittled and attacked infertiles with your opening post you lost all of my respect.

          For me we all lose if the practices in our society continue. We all win when infertile couples are fully supported rather than enabled to pursue some of the unethical ways of alternative parenthood. That’s what I define as winning and losing.

    • Poll | September 16, 2013 at 12:29 pm |

      You either have not read or do not understand my comments on this subject regarding coercion and women in crisis.

38. cb | September 16, 2013 at 6:26 am |

    For those who ask, why aren’t people blaming adoption agencies. I would say most of us are blaming the Adoption Industry, an industry run by those wishing to increase adoption to fill a demand.

    For example, there is a site called Bravelove –

    They will tell you that they are about changing the image of adoption and that it is a campaign that seeks to drastically increase adoption rates in the U.S
    And an article in bizjournels about Bravelove says the following:

    “With Halloween past, the holiday season has officially begun. Over the next two months, families will come together to make merry and cherish their loved ones. November, in particular, offers Thanksgiving and another important celebration for many families — National Adoption Month. Only through the compassionate act of adoption have these families become the one they are celebrating today.

    Yet the number of families able to benefit from domestic adoption isn’t nearly as large as it could be. Currently in the U.S., only 2 percent of women with unplanned pregnancies consider adoption according to the National Council for Adoption. BraveLove, a new Dallas-based movement, is dedicated to growing that number by encouraging young women to consider adoption when faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Since adoption is rarely considered, many families interested in adopting a child have to do so from another country.

    The mission of BraveLove is to provide honest, informative and hopeful communication about domestic adoption. BraveLove wants to change how people think about adoption by conveying how courageous it is for a woman to place her child with a loving, adoptive family. Ultimately, BraveLove wants to witness an increase in domestic adoptions.

    “We are very excited to see our vision come to life and to spread our message of love and courage,” said Ellen Porter, founder of BraveLove, who has adopted two children herself.

    “If a women is faced with an unplanned pregnancy, adoption may be a great option for her,” said Porter. “There are many people who view adoption in a negative light. But for many birthmothers, adopted children and adoptive families, it is an amazing act of love and courage.”
    To learn more about BraveLove, share their inspirational video or donate, visit www”

    Do you note from the first 2 paragraphs of the article whom this “drastic increase in adoption” is actually for.
    Does it really sound like it is about the child or the mother?
    No, it is because “the number of families able to benefit from domestic adoption isn’t nearly as large as it could be” and “since adoption is rarely considered, many families interested in adopting a child have to do so from another country”.

    So, if one “follows the money” in adoption, one discovers that those professionals who have been entrusted to help women with their “options” are often being counselled using a program designed by those whose chief aim is not to help those women and not even really to help their babies but to help those who wish to adopt. There aren’t enough babies to fill the demand and thus the best way to do that is to provide directive counselling aimed at destroying an emom’s self esteem so much that she ends up thinking she is not worthy to parent her own child. Deliberate facts and actions are left out of this type of counselling. This counselling is not designed to help women but to “reform their thinking” so they chose a particular outcome.

    I’ve done the NCFA birthmother training program and I can see how it works and it is scary – because it is aimed specifically at women with unplanned pregnancies who are genuinely considering parenting and often it is caring women who are most susceptible to the message contained in the counselling programs. And as an extra insult to us adoptees, “we” as a collective group are used to hold our first moms to ransom, i.e. our first moms are told what “we” could want even if it isn’t what “we” want at all.