I haven’t had to defend myself in quite some time as I usually assume anyone here knows the story by now, but I think I need to make a cheat sheet! Since there is just SO much happening over there AND since it’s May first, I have decided to try and join in NaBloPoMo and kill two birds with one stone!
The “theme” of NaBloPoMo is “play”. Yeah, I’m “playing” all right! The game I play is called Adoption truth or lies?
The Welfare Momma
Many of the comments discuss how a woman has no business having a child if she cannot take care of it on her own. There is a great resentment at the thought of having to assist mothers in any way through social services that are funded by people’s taxes. That’s the nice way of saying it and here is one of the “kinder” ways it was said:
“great idea if you cannot afford to have a child why should the taxpayers pay? we did not enjoy the sex! why should we pay for your mistake?”
What I Thought about Welfare Mothers Pre Relinquishment
The idea of being a “welfare momma” was quite horrific to me and that was one of the ways that I was seduced by the idea of adoption. Like many of the commenter’s, I have to admit that at the time, I also thought that any young mother who kept her child would be stuck on welfare forever. Hence, I was “smarter” than that and adoption meant that I avoided being the evil welfare mom. Adoption=good / welfare=bad!
A Life of Social Services
Now, I am a tax payer too. I have worked since I had a paper route at age 12. I have NOT worked a total of 5 times in my entire life:
- I was on disability from when I broke my arm in October 2007 until I found my current job, that I could complete with a broken humerus, in January 2008.
- I was laid off and on unemployment when I was quite pregnant with Tristan in May of 2002 until I returned to a new job when my 6 week pregnancy disability was over in Dec of 2002.
- I was out for 4 weeks after Scarlett was born in 2001
- When Garin was born in 1991 I was on disability for a slightly longer time as he was a c-section.
- I stayed home with Garin for 9 months and then I got a job when that marriage went kaputy and I had to support myself and my baby.
That was all of 3 1/2 years after I had Max. I am pretty sure I would have done it then if I had to as well. In fact, it was even harder with Garin as I was now living 100 miles from my family and not at home. I was paying rent, food, etc.
I refuse to feel bad that I received disability to recover from pregnancies and a broken arm.
The Cost of My Pregnancy to Tax Payers
Now here’s an interesting bit for all those worrying about MY pregnancy costing THEM money:
The adoption agency put me on The Commonwealth of Massachusetts’s public medical assistance to pay for the birth of Max. Yup, I received “welfare” under the guidance of the adoption agency, but had I not gone to the agency, my medical care would have been covered as I was under my parent’s insurance policy still back home on L.I.
So in my case, being just unwed and keeping my child would have cost “everyone” less.
The Cost of My Parenting to Tax Payers
Now, I can say with 100% certainty that IF I had parented Max, he would NOT have been a burden to the poor taxpayers.
First off for the above reasoning. I was horrified by the thought of accepting any sort of help (that wasn’t from the adoption agency that I trusted). Plus, I did have a nice suburban house in Massapequa Park to call home. Granted it was my mother’s house, but considering I lived there for the next 2 1/2 years anyway, it was home. My mother was working full time as well and no one would have starved. We always had Sarah Lee Chocolate Swirl Poundcake.
While it took me over ten years to realize that child support was my right, I am pretty dern sure that IF I had kept Max, my mother would have insisted that I exercise that right and go after child support. I am also pretty dern sure that IF that had happened that Max’s father would not have hesitated. Ok, maybe he would have hesitated, but paternity would have been easy to proved and in truth, the child support would have been much easier than the “scandle”. Plus, when I eventually did tell him, 19 years too late, his first words were “Why didn’t you tell me?”. He might not have liked it at the time, but given the chance, Max would have had a father.
So, sorry. I have tried on your generalization and I find that it does not fit the bill.
Save Tax Money for Important Stuff!
Many people automatically assume that every child adopted was somehow saved from the tax roles.. or now that I have explained it all.. every other child, but mine was saved. I’m just this annoying exception fabricated by Dan Rather!
Based on that, adoption becomes a good thing since it “saves” tax payers money. People don’t like their money “wasted” on what they consider unimportant things.
I am kind of perplexed that so many people really consider a mother and child to be “unimportant”. But I am also rather perplexed why there is so much hatred towards women and concern about allowing us not allowing us to control our fertility and have children when we really want to. I guess these are the same people who want teachers salaries to be cut and think contraceptives are the fruit of the devil? Sometimes I think we are dealing with a world full of BergerMeisterMeisterBurgers who don’t remember how much they just want to play with a shiny new yo-yo. Or they just need to get laid themselves?
Anyway, people don’t like the idea of other people getting a free ride and making their living off of someone else’s sweat. I get that. I don’t like having to pick up my kids socks. They should do it themselves. Same principle, right? Clean up your own messes. We vilify the “welfare momma” who just keeps on having kids to collect that paycheck and stay home smoking, eating bon bons and watching soap operas. Why should she get the life we all want and we get to foot the bill? Just because she can have babies? Big deal. Any brood mare can do that.
I’m a Brood Mare, a Sow, a Breeder
Hurtful? Yes. But that IS what people think. It rolls off my tongue because I have hear it, read it all before. It’s on the Yahoo article. Go read comments. That’s what people think outside of adoptionland, outside of the agency that calls you strong, or away from the adoptive parents who say how courageous you are, or the adoptees who want to thank us for life. It what people say when they don’t know you are a birth mother or when they think you are not worthy of compassion or understanding or when they talk about the “welfare momma”.
I am sure that somewhere this woman does exist, but I have never been in danger of becoming her.
For one, I don’t like soap opera or Jerry Springer. I do like chocolate and can watch a Law and Order marathon like nobody’s business, but only when I am feeling mopey. Other than that, I have trouble sitting still. I don’t “relax” well. I make things. I create. I’m a project kind of girl. I just don’t have it in me not to work. I LIKE to work. And it’s funny.. all the other mothers I know…whose babies also had to be adopted in order to save them from a live of being a welfare momma..none of them fit the bill either. In fact, if I had to stereotype birthmother’s work ethics.. I would say that we are a hard working bunch of driven women!
But maybe that’s because we DIDN’T have those horrid babies to drag us down, right? I mean that’s got to be it. If I had kept Max I would be still stuck in the deep pit of public assistance and food stamps never to be a functioning part of society again. After all, placing Max of adoption allowed me to do some really important things that I would not have gotten to do otherwise. Like I went to a lot of Grateful Dead shows and got my associates degree in Early Childhood Education..which was pretty much useless to me the minute I got it. So that leaves..Jerry Garcia or my baby…wow.. thank GOD for adoption! Does everyone else see how insane this all is?
Adoption Saves Money!
But I want to stay on topic here: it’s all about where people’s taxes go and how they do NOT want to pay for us whores “spreading our legs”.
What I wonder is are they OK for paying the adoption industry to make more money? You know, like how we used tax dollars for the bank bailouts and then they gave themselves bonuses? Are people OK with helping adoptive parents GET the babies that they want?
What DO we pay for out of taxes in relation to adoption?
- The National Council for Adoption: A federally funded lobby group created in 1980 to promote adoption.
- Infant Adoption Awareness Training: Federally funded program to teach those who might come in contact with potential welfare momma to think adoption is a good idea.
- The Adoption Tax Credit: Now $13,000 plus given to adoptive parents when they adopt!
I’m betting that most people don’t know that both our prisons and psychiatric institutions see a much greater ratio of adoptees verses the non-adoptee population. I’m pretty sure our taxes fund the judicial system in this country. Can we also keep in mind that medicaid pays for VIAGRA and that pos-T-vac thing that as far as I can tell is a penis vacuum! Last time I looked, logic said that children were more important than penis vacuums, but then again, I don’t have a penis that needs cleaning. I could keep on going with this, but the end result is still going to be the same.
Adoption did not SAVE my son from a life of food stamps. I was never going to be a welfare momma. I was afraid of that..oh I thought just like the Yahoos..and I was so afraid. Was that fear used to manipulate me? Yes, I think so. Did I learn over the years what stuff I AM made of and that my fears were completely ridiculous? Yes, yes, that happened.
Was it worth losing my son so that we can all maintain our perceptions of stereotypes? No. Definitely not. Pardon me while I quote another Yahoo: Get Over it!
And is there something special about adoptoraptors that none of them EVER, EVER, EVER go on TANF or Medicaid or food stamps? I was terrified of going on welfare when I was considering what to do about my almost-3-year-old son after his dad and I broke up. I felt all my family and friends would shun me and I’ve seen lots of evidence since then that I was right about them. But when my son’s grandmother adopted him, guess what? He was on state health insurance for a while. Yep… WELFARE.
How many of the people criticizing you ever saw a prospective adoptoraptor on the Internet with a blog, begging for “donations” so they could afford to adopt? Come on now… if they didn’t have the money to adopt some kid out of foster care, and definitely didn’t have the money for a private agency and a baby purchase, they were one step away from the dole anyhow.
Do any of these idiots realize that every foster parent out there is cashing checks from the state? True story. Had those kids been able to stay with their moms, that money would have stayed in the state coffers. And at least SOME of those kids in foster care are just infants relinquished for adoption who aren’t quite legally ready to go to their adopters yet.
And then there are the social problems. Adoptoraptors abuse drugs, and drink excessively, and beat their spouses and adoptees, and commit other crimes. All of that goes on the state’s dime as well.
How come nobody told George Bush back in 2003 that if he wanted to go to war against Iraq to avenge his daddy, that he could do it on his own damn dime and not at our expense? That cost us a LOT more than moms on welfare do.
Do any of these yahoos even understand that welfare, at least the TANF part, is not permanent anymore? Five years and you’re done. That is IT. You are not even allowed to go to college while you are on it.
God, what they REFUSE to see.
P.S. I am NOT apologizing for my language. I appreciate those adoptive parents who came to understand that the system is screwed up, but I don’t see you giving your kids back to their parents, either. So I like you… but I don’t *completely* sympathize with you. You’re the one who came out on top with this. And the more intelligent of you with the greatest integrity already understand that.
I offer your readers a tale of two women:
And old friend I hadn’t seen in years and I got pregnant around the same time, the 80s. She was one of those flakes who wanted to keep her child even if it meant food stamps and living on one of her flaky friend’s couches. She’d spent two years in a halfway house, and I told her she should rethink things. Wasn’t that a little selfish for her child, after all?
I, on the other hand, was a church-going young woman in a long-term relationship. The father left and I went for crisis pregnancy counseling at a place my church recommended.
The social worker assured me that the good thing, the unselfish thing, the Godly thing was to give my baby to a deserving couple. Translate: I was undeserving of my child. In order to “counsel” me, she required I go medicare even though my company’s insurance paid for my delivery, etc.
It was their policy to do this just in case we wound up surrendering our children, so that the people hoping to adopt would not have to foot any hospital bills. So, the pregnancy counselor/agency person counseled the use of public assistance that cost taxpayers. So did the subsidies the couple was given in order to adopt my child.
I, on the other hand, made payments on doctor bill copays for a year after delivery as a grieved.
My friends’ child, years later, said (in front of me) that she was thankful her mom had loved her enough to keep her. My friend went on to work, marry, and is approaching the 1 percent, financially.
The assumptions about adoption did not come true for my child by a long shot.
I was naive enough to believe that strangers, just because they were married at a time I wasn’t and were recommended by Christians, would be better for my child than me.
I was counseled to believe my child would be grateful. That was not the case.
If society sees fit that mothers and children should lose each other because of naivete, that’s not a very humane society.
But that’s just me talking, a “brood mare,” who “spread her legs” while the rest of the Yahoos were busy modeling unquestionable morality, unceasing integrity, and perpetual wonderfulness.
I am a proud single mother. I was married and divorced with two small children in tow. I am also an adoptee. It is terrible how they twisted this. I read yahoo all day and my head is still spinning. I tried to respond as much as I could. Do not let it get you down. I have many many married friends who receive government benefits. Just because you have a spouse does not mean that the society we live in is providing jobs where even a two income household can support a family. This is way more complex than teen sex and pregnancy as far as worrying about government assistance goes.
I also want to say while I got pregnant while unmarried I married my exhusband at the same age my mother had me… I still wound up on welfare with two kids. Just marrying the father of your children does NOT mean you will not end up having to accept government assistance at some point in your life. I am maddened at the argument these idiots are making. I would have preferred to have been raised poor and on welfare and WITH my birth mother- then not with her. PERIOD. NO question asked. And yes- I have thought of this- for years and this is the conclusion I have come to.
And, furthermore, while I’m here: The demographic targeted, yes targeted, by the National Council for Adoption and its affiliated “counselors” is/are not women who are hanging out at the corner bar. On the contrary, they’re more likely to be in the college quad, working a low-paying job, or at church. Agencies and their “unbiased” pregnancy counselors want healthy infants from healthy, productive mothers. When I first began to realize this, I didn’t want to believe it either. I was horrified, too. I wanted to say “not possible!”
Adoption, when completely ethical, can certainly be a blessing. When it’s not ethical, when its based on deception and omission of truth and calculated pressure, it’s not a blessing — at least not for the mother. But, again, the yahoos demonstrate how “birth” mothers are still perceived.
* above should read Medicaid (not medicare)
Claud, I am sorry people are being so cruel to you. The relative anonymity of the internet brings out the viciousness in people.
You made all excellent points. Those comments went off of nothing but stereotype. In the 70’s, there were tax-payers more than willing to cover the cost of children being in-care instead of with their “whore” single mothers who went and “got themselves pregnant”–even though it cost THREE TIMES as much to fund institutional care for the children instead of fully supporting them with their mothers. Just as they’re trying to do now, some states made it criminal to be a single mom. People that talk like this have no clue how much they pay in taxes goes where or even what it is used for. If they did, the alleged welfare moms, who are among the 98% of recipients who never use TANF to its full 5-year limit anyway, would be the least of their worries.
As a married mom (who never got pregnant unmarried or unprepared or while in high school, not because of extra-super “virtue” or because I was concerned about all the tax payers–I had fertility problems) who stays at home with her kids, I am sick of people talking about parenting and blah-blah-blah tax dollars as if parenting isn’t work and doesn’t have any value. I can’t believe the amount of whining that goes on in this country when it comes to spending any amount of money to care for the next generation.
I am horrified. I spent most of my day reading on yahoo and I can’t wrap my head around it. Claude you were so brave and it is going to take this kind of action and we are already seeing results.. in all that garbage there are adoptees and first mothers speaking out- saying I miss my mom- I think of her every day… first mothers saying they think of their children every day… but the hatred is so severe and hurtful. I keep thinking of the picture of you like rosie riveter… lets be strong.
We should remember that the same class warfare that institutionalizes adoption is the same class warfare that will defend it tooth and nail. This requires the worst in stereotypes be applied to those who are on the supply side. Yahoo is a nightmare of this kind of rhetoric. I was told last week that it must “suck to be [me]”. This is what poses as argument. The exceptional case is not a valid argument; it is a tactic. We keep up the good fight, and Truth is on our side. We are here for you.
Excellent post and insights as usual Claud. I wish it surprised me how uncaring and vicious people can be. But it doesn’t. And I’m sorry that so many judgemental comments are being aimed at you simply because you spoke out.
The “welfare momma” argument is ridiculous. Anyone can fall on hard times. Yes, even adoptive parents. The act of adopting does make one a superhuman who is immune to the challenges of life. Adoptive mothers can find themselves single or widowed with children. Some might need assistance or help. Are they too considered “welfare mommas” or tax liabilities?
And how do all these people feel about their tax money partially subsidizing adoption/foster agencies and adoptive parents? I’m sure that the adoption industry is taking in way more tax money than women who need temporary help. It’s a circular argument.
Oh, and about the children involved? Right. Who cares about what is best for them.
Stay strong Claud! We can do this!
Comments like those show such ignorance about what really happens in adoption that it’s hard for me to even take them seriously anymore. I will say, as a taxpayer myself, I’d much rather my taxes went to help children rather than bombing them in other countries. What a mean-spirited nation we have become!
Claud, I am sorry you are being re-aquainted with the general ignorance out there. Great post and know that you have people at your back who know the truth. Yes it is hurtful and can be crushing when people hit out so personally and nastily – but that is why we are all here trying to change that view – slowly but surely. Change makes people uncomfortable and so they get stuck in harder and lash out more. But change will happen and you will be part of that.
The tax thing is just an excuse people use. There are plenty of people who use welfare for a variety of reasons but its the “one bad apple spoils a bunch” mentality which is applied to the majority rather than a very small minority.
Claud: bravo on your post! I was just telling some of my friends about the yahoo comments and how truly horrifying they are. You wonder who these people are that have the time and inclination to spew such vitriol. I was sorry that your story was edited out of the show last night – I surrendered in 1988 and really wanted to see and hear your part! I sincerely hope Rather will do another show on this topic.
I can’t even read that cr*p at Yahoo. The collective ignorance is puketastic. Adoption saves tax dollars? LMAO. Adoption sells children to pedophiles. The money our government invests into marketing adoption should be invested in preventing what I survived. My story is not unique. “Home Studies” are jokes. The multi-billion dollar unregulated baby pimping machine in this country burps with pleasure while innocents are sold to monsters.
All of you are such fucking losers, that’s all I have to say. Specially Amanda.
And you win the Uber TOOL award! Congratulation! Now please go jump in a lake! 🙂 and have a super day!
Wow, so tough, how about you use your name next time you sling insults? Oh right, probably too scared that you might have to answer for your unjustified, infantile, mud-slinging.
My good god Anonymous hater above me, what a piece of garbage you are. Your the &^&$*%$# loser. The world is full of cold-hearted, inhumane people. You are among them. Don’t ever forget that.
In regards to the “welfare queen” label, what hypocrites they are. Isn’t their big “adoption tax break” government assistance? Why it sure the hell is! It comes from the “government”, does it not?
I am a single mom to a son that was not conned and manipulated out of me with lies and false promises (unfortunately his brother WAS)and I get up every day and go to work to support my child. If something should happen where I did have to get Food Stamps or any other type of assistance to feed my child I would have not one problem with it, as I have paid into the system too and those are MY tax dollars I am getting back.
This notion that every young single mom will sit on her tail every day and never work is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I suppose their jobs, houses and the like won’t be GOOD enough, though, unlike those perfect almighty adopters jobs, houses and the like.
People are nuts. That’s all I got.
and Claude, you are absolutely awesome. Don’t let one word from one YAHOO imbecile get you down.
Yes, we are total losers! I lost my identity, Claud lost her kid, lose, we lost, that is the whole point. I am glad you could see that adoption is about loss. Although I am not sure why ‘Specially Amanda’, Amanda is special, she sparkles like a diamond. I do like your Baboon-English though. I find it so charming when people drop pretension and speak like the animals they are.
Oh yes, welfare momma represent. I got the blingity-bling welfare after I had my son because I OMG spread my legs and it was fantastic! I have paid it back in taxes 100 fold, I have become an employER, I have produced an ethical, responsible, adult child. Sorry, I am not ashamed. I think it just proves that yes, the girl’s got moxie.
I kind of think it is really cute that after what we have been through, loss of identity, family, children, culture, etc. that some anon is still dewy enough to think calling us losers anon. is going to break our hearts. Yes, we are losers, that is the point of bringing up the life-long pain inherent in the magic of adoption.
The sad thing that is all this anon has to say, other than that they are claiming to be a mute beast. That is very disappointing, that is very not fabulous. I must turn away from the boring, I am sorry anon.
Write On, Joy and yes of course Claud.
All the loser comments are coming from adopters, plain and simple, or wannabe adopters. I just feel sorry for the kids they end up with.
xxx to you Claud.
I’m a mom who lost her oldest child to adoption. I was also a teenage mom. I relied on WIC for the first six months after my second child was born and used LEAP assistance in the past to pay our heating bill.
I also worked, earned a degree and built a career all while raising my amazing children to have empathy for others. To always believe in asking for help when you need it and giving help when you can.
I may have been a young mom. I may have relied on government help during my life. But I am thankful that the children I raised believe in human kindness and would never act so cruelly or be so judgmental against others as those who are showing their true colors on Yahoo.
Perhaps its us moms who understand the importance of help and support who truly do raise the best children!
I am so sorry that Yahoo commenters are being hurtful and ignorant- I have found that most comments to Yahoo news are mostly on the dumb-side. This was a good post and I think you are correct. Most people are not aware that many hopeful adoptive families seek donations for their adoptions nor are most people aware of the adoption tax credit and federally funded lobby group (I wasn’t aware of the latter either). I am glad that some of the ethical problems with adoption are being brought out in the open– I hope it leads to more states opening up records for Adoptees.
Claude you did a great thing for all of us by participating in this story. I would like to address the yahoo posts and how they affect many of us natural mothers.
I actually knew in advance how those Yahoo comments would go. We have many adopted parents who knew this story was coming out. I figured they would be the first to comment under assumed identities and blast Dan and the story. Next I anticipated slings and arrows thrown at birthmothers using old stereotypes. I can’t prove that those original posts come from adoptive parents but the trend I predicted did happen. Hmmmm…..
And then as I expectedthe real reactions to the stories by those who do not have an agenda would trickle in and gain momentum. Just read the comments from oldest posts first and you can see the trend. There are some great heart wrenching posts in there by natural mothers, and friends and family of natural mothers. I also read some thoughtful posts by adopted people.
It is just the typical response pattern when anything of merit is published or aired on adoption that does not say how wonderful it is or has been.
I have noticed the birthmother trend when responding to these type of abusive posts(and these are just my observations) is a defensive one. For some reason we are left to explain again and again that we are not stereotypes. Why do we do this? Why do we waste our time and energy explaining to people that we are not what they would like us to be perceived. They know we aren’t that is why they feel threatened. Why give them the joy of reading how their cruel post affected us by defending ourselves. Why let those posts affect us at all? IMHO enough already!
I really enjoyed the part of your post regarding the financial aspects of parenting vs. adoption to the taxpayers. Now that is where I would like to see our energies directed. We need to keep on on educating and calling out the current culture of US infant adoption.
Yeah, I am defensive at times. I’ll get over it one day… That may stem from having no voice all of those years.
Stephanie I have been defensive too and still am at times. I was not making a value judgement on Claud’s reaction. I just want to point out that those abusive comments are tactical in nature. They are used to derail any meaningful conversations and dialogue. I take the anonymous post directed at Amanda as an example. The anymous poster would like to lead further comments in the direction of a defense for Amanda and an attack on them so that we stop talking about what it important. It is a shaming tactic used to control people.
I agree. Sometimes we react (I know I do) out of anger and disgust when we should just ignore them as if they don’t exist. To me they don’t 🙂
Most of my property taxes (over $7,000.00 a year) go to educating other peoples children. Maybe we should think of that as welfare. Do those leaving negative comments soley pay for the welfare and education of their children?
Most likely not.
Wow, arrived here hoping for real discourse and of course find that same kind of mud slinging and generalizations launched at AP’s as so many of you cry afould when treated with the same slander.
First, people/parents should not be called adoptoraptors or any other “name” unless of course you wish for that favor to be returned. Second, presuming that the thousands of comments fed to Yahoo regarding the Dan Rather article stem from adoptive parents? Ridiculous! Obviously you must then believe that they too must simply sit around on the dole and have better to do with their time than lash out on Yahoo? Or even care about a hack like Dan Rather or this blog?? LOL
Third, the leap that all or most natural mothers are hard working and driven in your circle, therefore all natural mothers must be so? Not so much.
Having worked in social services for the better part of half my life, I can tell you that corruption and greed is alive & well, and while not limited to one group of society, women birthing children to continue to receive benefits and soak the system as it were exists and not simply as the exception as you might wish it. Deal with it. Not all young mothers were pristine, virtous and “duped” or coerced as you put it. Many today look at it as a means to an end. Or for other less than savory purposes WITH no thought to how it affects the child? ( sound familiar?)
Additionally, where is the outrage for the men who should be held accountable in these situations. Why the free pass for them? Why is it the government’s responsibility to provide what they won’t?
And finally, before you all circle the wagons of flames and limited scope, I am a NATURAL MOTHER who gave up her child KNOWING it would hurt like h*ll, never feeling like I was “gifting” someone else and understanding it was a life long decision.
Just as you don’t feel guilty for support/aid. I won’t feel guilty for making a hard decision AND the best decision for my child, standing by it and not whining about it so many years later or pretending the fault was not my own. I stand by it. I’m big enough to do that. I’m glad my child had the life I could not provide for him at that time and equally glad he didn’t have to wait around for me to get my act together in the process. I own that too. I’m sorry if you truly had no choices or options. But if you were that easy to “brainwash” how did you expect to keep a child safe and truly parent? And yeah, I went through everything many of you did too. The isolation, young age, presumptions, etc. Fact is, choices have consequences and some of you simply need to accept responsibility for your own. Fact is, most of you don’t truly know how things would have turned out had to kept/parented that child. Having a child 3 or 10 years down the road isn’t a blueprint or portent of success. Parenting down the road isn’t a complete indicator of how it would have gone at any given age, circumstances, etc. It just isn’t.
P.S. I also KNOW quite a few of us natural mothers who feel as I do. So does that make a generalized statement too? That most of us are okay with it after all this time. Sure the studies all say we would have “wished” to keep our child, but the reality of being able/ready? I just don’t think so. The question of readiness and feasibility outweighs a wish sometimes. Those studies are skewed, open ended and weighted towards one outcome. Yes, I “wished” for a different outcome or set of circumstances too. But I sure don’t blame adoptive families in general for my actions way back when.
Deb
Deb, Has your child tried to make contact with you?
Wow Deb.
As an adoptee, I can tell you that all the material possessions in the world do not make up for not having your mother. It would have bothered me terribly if my mother had told me she was glad to have given me away. Fortunately, that was not the case. But, you know, anything that allows you to sleep better at night.
Here’s another “fact is” for you … Fact is you had NO IDEA how things would turn out for your child. I do hope he has had a good life and did not end up in a worse place, like too many adoptees do.
These mothers who loved their children enough to want to fulfill their responsibility to them by seeing to their care *personally* – even if it may have meant great hardship for them – have all of my respect.
Deb….
Same Deb that I used to love to debate on the same subjects on SOFA?? oz this sounds very familiar to me:)
Wow Deb. From your reply here it sounds like you feel that because you had sex and became pregnant, you deserved to be legally and permanently removed from your own child’s life. Your words also make it sound as though you feel that mothers like Claudia deserved the same.
As an adoptee, your words are so heart wrenching to me. I didn’t do anything to anyone. And yet, based on what you are saying here, I too deserved to be legally and permanently removed from the the lives of my mother, my father, my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles and my cousins–all because my mother and father had sex when they were unwed 18-year-olds.
You might be glad about the hard decision you made and feel that the “punishment fit the crime” but what about your child? Did he or she deserve to be punished too?
It is my feeling that women do not deserve to lose their children simply because they became pregnant under what are most likely temporary, challenging circumstances. Wish you felt the same.
Well said Iadoptee.
Btw Deb’s views seem very similar to what the desired outlook for those undergoing agency grief counselling would be, if the following tract is anything to go by. The second half is about grief counselling – the author seems to believe that a grieving nmother is being “a victim”.
http://ncfaeducation.org/BirthparentCounseling/pdf/AdoptionPracticesInTheHumaneWorld.pdf
This is why I believe grief counselling should be done by an independent counsellor.
I couldn’t support Claudia more in the telling of her story. Disrespectful discourse on any side only cheapens those involved in the “debate” (for want of a better word). I, do, however, take offense to being referred to as an “adoptoraptor” by people who purport to want to be treated with respect. Just as I can’t understand the stories of first mothers and adoptees unless I seek them out, I’m tiring of the group to which I belong (“adopters”) being treated with the same disgust and disdain that many of you resent. I haven’t been in your shoes, you haven’t been in mine. Commenters on Yahoo can’t be taken seriously. Anyone who truly believes in their cause (as I believe Claudia to be) would never be disuaded by insulting (especially anonymous) internet comments. But for those of us who are truly trying to see as many sides of this issue as is possible, please stop the name calling. And as Claudia said to profane Anonymous above, have a great day.
Don’t want to be called an “adoptoraptor”? Don’t call our mothers “Birth Mothers”. Don’t tell adoptees that we need to be grateful for not being in an orphanage, a dumpster baby, or aborted. Don’t tell us that we don’t have a right to our own birth certificates. Don’t pay large sums of money for babies, your money is funding human trafficking in 3rd world countries. Don’t insist that your name be listed on a child’s birth certificate when you had no participation in the creation of that child. Don’t tell adoptees that we are “angry” “angsty”, etc.
Not all adoptive parents are adoptoraptors. Don’t want to be called one? Don’t be one.
Here, here… I disdain dehumanizing labels as well, very much like the one I have been called for the last 22 years…
Agreed. It’s not just the name calling, it’s the attitude behind the name-calling. Just as there is a mean-spirited attitude against single mothers who lost their babies to adoption, there is a mean-spirited bias against adoptees, too. We are pawns, the prize, the gift of life to those who lust after another woman’s newborn.
Adoptees are never supposed to know.
The general public loves to cuss out bastards; the meaning of that word doesn’t seem to sink in to those who sling this slur at anyone they hate. For those of us who were born of unmarried parents, that word describes us. It is the label that has been handed down to us throughout the ages. It is a label of shame and guilt. We dirty bastards had better be grateful for what we have been given, even when many of us adoptees weren’t born illegitimately. Many of us are half or full orphans. But we are bastards, too, because we are adopted children, not fit to know who gave us life.
When adoptive parents stand up and defend adoptees’ rights to our true birth certificates, when adoptive parents stand up and say “No!” to the government that insists on creating false birth certificates when a child is adopted, when adoptive parents stand up and defend adoptees’ rights to reunion with their natural parents, then we might see the mud-slinging subside. When lusting after another woman’s newborn turns becomes, instead, compassion for the underprivileged pregnant girl or woman, then we might see a better world.
I support you, Claudia!
Oh, and to the anonymous “social worker” who wants to know where our fathers are? Well, my father was NEVER told that he had a child (me). The State of California bastardized me in order to sell me for adoption. 42 years later I still cannot find him. Thank you adoption industry and our government that is in bed with it!
And what about the 37 year old high school teacher who can’t keep his mits off of his pretty 17 year old students? Or the priest who gets a girl pregnant? Or the father who rapes his daughter? Or the uncle who rapes his niece? Or the father whose wife just died, leaving behind five children? The adoption industry just doesn’t want to know about the father who rapes, or the priest who rapes, or the teacher who rapes. The adoption industry and the opinions of society would rather the father who lost his wife give up his newborn, rather than help him keep his family together. Just convince him that two parents are better than one, just as it is said to the frightened pregnant girl, two parents are better than you are for your baby. The fathers? No one cares. Just hand over the baby.
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Anonymous,regarding money paid for adoption funding human trafficking in third world countries: in Russia the exact opposite is true. I’m more than happy to debate the issue with you based on factual data and personal experience. Following the adoption of my children, we’ve continued to raise money for education of children who age out of the orphanage. To support organizations that support young mothers so they don’t have to give up their children. When I get a letter from you in Russian, which I can read and am teaching my children, I’m happy to hear your point of view. Unfortunately, it sounds like you’re parroting some drivel that’s been fed to you, and calling people names behind a veil called “anonymous”. Juvenile name calling is not helping anyone. Although it does seem to make you feel better. Which is tragic.
This court ruling should caution people who choose to comment anonymously on sites such as Yahoo and elsewhere:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/jury-awards-13-million-texas-defamation-suit-anonymous/story?id=16194071
Barbara, an adoptoraptor, who adopted from Russia. You think your money is going to help children? No it’s going to the wallets of baby pimps in Russia.
It’s funny how the adoption industry in Romania and Australia dried up once money was taken out of the equation. It happens every time.
-Mara
PS…F&CK YOU
Looks like your being threatened with a “lawsuit” for having an opinion different than that of our resident adotoraptor. I have chosen to post this anonymously and will be waiting for the authorities to bust down my door and haul me off to jail for writing the word “adoptoraptor. Perhaps I could sue for defamation too, for being called a “waking incubator” to even up the score.
Control freaks til the very end, aren’t them ADOPTORAPTORS…
Great debate.
And that link to the lawsuit was more directed to the Anonymous commenter who attacked Amanda….who probably couldn’t be a more bright insightful blogger. And the hideous comments on Yahoo re: Claudia and others. Goodness, people.
Control freak. Sue me.
Debate? You came here to put us all in “our place” and tell us what and what not to say. I never lurk around ap blogs, let alone scold posters for calling natural parents all types of vile things. I can’t stomach their blogs long enough to stick around to type anything… Having our children is not enough. They must control the world as they see it, but not this mother they won’t.
Truthfully, I DO prefer to NOT call people names. (except for the one who insulted dear Amanda. I’ll stand by the uber TOOL comment there).
That said: I use “birthmother” for Google spiders. There’s a whole post here called Adoption and SEO that explains THAT. I’d much prefer to NOT use any lables at all,but the search results have still not provided as keyword with better results.
Are there lousy cold hearted mothers Yup. Are there truly awful adopterraptors too? Oh SURE. There are some asshole adotptees in this world as well. And eveil baby brokers and rotten facilitators and so on and so on. It doesn’t mean, when we talk about them, that they are here. And it doesn’t mean that they are YOU. And I like, in my perfect happy world where pure intentions and open hearts rule, that ANYONE who found there way here would NEVER EVER fall into any of the above evil categories. Right? We all come here because we care. 🙂 But if you all want to fight and call each other names, have at it. Let me just tell you that NONE of that will help ANYONE and no one will learn ANYTHING and any understanding will get lost in bitterness and all that stuff.
And that’s what I have to say about that.
Barbara I know you are commenting based on your personal experiences regarding adopting from Russia. But surely you cannot discount that the Russia’s Foreign Ministry has asked to suspend all adoptions of Russian children to US adoptive parents due to crimes commited by American Adoptive parents. They claim up to 17 deaths of Russian children at the hands of their American adoptive parents.
Are we to believe that the Russian Foreign Ministry is mistaken in being concerned regarding US citizens adopting Russian children? It is all well and good that money is being raised to help Russian orphans but we need not forget about the 17 innocent souls who are dead and to which the Russian Foreign Ministry blames their US adoptive parents. It is very sad and needs acknowledgement as those poor innocent children are dead now and adoption surely was not the answer for them.
Please tell us about the Russian organizations that you support who value Russian family preservation for pregnant women. It will be refreshing to read about this.
Thank you for the chance to reply. Russia has in fact not suspended adoptions. They continue. Some factions had asked for suspensions until the bilateral treaty that was signed last summer was enacted by the new government (Mr. Putin, again, recently re-elected).
I would never in a million years forgot the horrors of the 17 children who were murdered by their adoptive American parents. The Ministry of Education in Russia of course should blame their murderers and should call for the United States to punish them within the full extent of the law; which in my estimation has not happened. Nor do I have anything but dispair for people who go into international adoption unprepared to parent a child who has been institutionalized for years. Any parent who hurts a child should be hung up by their finger nails and have their eyes plucked out. Whether they gave birth to them, adopt them, foster them, you name it. Here’s a list of links to start with:(these are just the ones that we support directly). If you don’t find what you’re looking for, I’ll find the exact pages for you.
http://www.sheispriceless.com/learn-about-sex-trafficking/ (children’s hope chest helps to support parenting classes for young parents, helps to re-aculturate girls that they re-kidnap from sex trafficking rings, parenting classes for pregnant girls who’ve aged out of the orphanage and have never had parents, among other things)
htp:change30.org/about/
http://www.iorphan.org/sponsor_child/index.asp
http://www.eaci/aid/donate (specifically Maria House)
Only 10 percent of children in Russian orphanages are eligible for adoption by any family (in or out of Russia). Many have parents or family members who have retained legal custody but are too poor to care for them. They can (and do) return for them later. I haven’t heard of any stories where these babies were adopted out from under their families (as has happened in other countries) but if you have those stories please send me a link. 10 percent of the kids who age out of the orphanages commit suicide within 1 year. The life expectancy of Russian “orphans” is 30 years. 60% of the girls end up in prostitution (often forced).
I plan to travel to Russia in the fall to work with the women who have been rescued from sex trade rings This isn’t a passing interest or hobby based on my adoption experiences. My (adopted) son and I plan to go back next summer. I have his birth records (OBC) and want to find his natural mother. He (currently) refuses. I’m not lurking here as has been suggested. I’m doing my damnedest to understand first mothers and adult adoptees. Which is why I would do anything to find my son’s original mother and try to find out what circumstances led to her relinquishing him, and to help fill whatever hole may be in his heart. The greatest thing that could ever happen would be to eliminate the need for Russian orphanages. So, go ahead and call me names. I won’t do the same.
http://www.hopechest.org/
Sorry, this truly is the quickest link to Children HopeChest and the information you wanted. If you go to this home page, then go down and click on the Russian flag. Go down the article and click on “Young Mothers Program”. For some reason I can’t link to it directly.
Claudia,
I have to say that I think I had many of the same feelings that you did as regards welfare. My family was never on welfare, but if they had been I might have known it’s true purpose – that it was and is temporary aid for families in serious need. What I thought was that it was for people who were lazy. I was ashamed for becoming pregnant when I should have “known better” and I felt that I would have further shamed my parents had I taken any government assistance. (1984)
I know you are familiar with Judith Ashton, who facilitated the adoption of my infant son. As you know, she never acknowledged mothers of loss on her website and although she is retired her legacy lives on. She worked tirelessly to get a cut of the Welfare money for adoptive parents. She, who signed in on my hospital records as “patient’s friend” never once advocated for public assistance for me and my son.
I’m sorry you are getting a lot of flack for speaking up. I think you did an outstanding job for those of us in the 80’s and beyond even though it sounds as though much of that was cut, I hope that it opened a door to truth. Don’t get too down on the comments. I was very active on Yahoo Q&A for awhile and you just keep going through the motions, trying to educate a few people, but most of them as so belligerent they can’t see past the end of their noses. What can you do?
I have to say, reading “Deb’s” comment, I have doubts about who she is. If she is a mother who didn’t want her child, why the fuss over airing a show about women who DID want to raise their children? Deb, your paragraphs 4 and 7-9 are very conflicting.
Sincerely,
Carol
@ Deb:
“Wow, arrived here hoping for real discourse and of course find that same kind of mud slinging and generalizations launched at AP’s as so many of you cry afould when treated with the same slander.”
slan•der/ˈslandər/
Noun:
The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.
That didn’t happen here, learn your first language, it is a useful tool.
“First, people/parents should not be called adoptoraptors or any other “name” unless of course you wish for that favor to be returned.”
Lol, this really made me LMAO, my ass is really off, had to clean it off the carpet. Return? The? Favor? Okai, I will splain real slow to you as I am an angryadoptee (which is one dismissive word), I am mal-adjusted, I am bitter, I do not deserve to be alive much less have an opinion? Who deserves an opinion? Your hairdresser’s cousin who was so happy to be abandoned and just wishes it would happen more often. Because normal, healthy people like to have their identities a state secret, but I am not a normal healthy person.
I am the product of sin, because my “birth-mother” OmG, SPREAD HER LEGS! What a horrible slut, she deserves to be deprived of her child. Because nothing is worse than being a young woman seeking love, with raging hormones, people will fuck even when they are starving to death, don’t faint. I said fuck, I am a bastard with bad-blood and all, what do you expect? Yes, my slutty mother was so horrible as to want to be loved, to fall into the biological imperative imposed on her by her creator, as in Jeebus who crated her, with the raging hormones and all. My mother certainly didn’t invent and wickedly install the desire to love and be loved on herself, or the hormones.
Return the favor, oh it would take a hundred generations of bastids like me to return the favor you offered. So yes Raptor dear, you are an adoptoraptor.
This made me laugh so hard, Joy 🙂 Thanks. I needed that this morning…
P.S.
@ Deb
“Having worked in social services for the better part of half my life”
So I am hoping this is the worse half of your life because you are acting the fool. Social work has many, many different disciplines. I don’t actually believe you ever were a social worker In what field?
Even if you were, I am horror of all whorrors, a former AFDC momma, I went to the interviews where I was asked if I “ever checked into a motel room with child’s father?” I sat across a social worker in a Chanel suit who asked me why I had a baby I couldn’t afford to raise, why I wasn’t with his father. “He hit me” I answered as a teenager feeling very vulnerable. “Well you should have never had his baby then”
I am glad I had his baby, he grew-up and changed. I have also sat across from social workers who were very kind. Esp. after that woman, one woman said you seem very defensive, she had complimented me on my home-made dress, she had tried to be warm but I was all prickly-pear. I told her why, she said, “I am so sorry you were treated like that” So you per se, being a social worker means nada.
I don’t even believe you, I don’t know who you are, if you are an nmom who is all down with pesky babies and you claim to have a circle of nmoms who feel the same way. I don’t know those kind of people I do know a few nmoms, not from adoptoland but from my life and they all have struggled very hard with it. I know nmoms from adoptoland who have struggled and run into those that are pleased as punch to go around and insult adoptees and claim that they are so happy and they know their child was abused, but he has a track-suit so whatev, yes you are right, a lot of people suck, you sound like you are claiming allegiance to the suckage. Well suck away babe, just don’t expect me, or the rest of us to be impressed.
I mean I think there is an app. for that, we don’t need you to waste your valuable time trying to hammer down lies that don’t fly anymore. I have an idea, why don’t you make a new better part of your life, a part where you are kind and compassionate and don’t debate or ridicule the marginalized. The possibilities are endless, why don’t you exploit the possibilities instead of children?
Yeah Joy, you got it/get it and likely always had it – thank you. Deb’s dichotomy kind of sucks.
Carol
Joy, you are seriously all kinds of awesome.
oh you all make me blush, and send my love right back to you. <3
New here…what better place to jump in….
I lost my first born daughter to adoption almost 20 years ago. Don’t even get me started on “social workers.”
When I was pregnant, my parents took me to Catholic Social Services for counseling (please understand I’m using all these terms loosely). I was planning on keeping my baby. I was reading up on child development, child care, fetal development, birth….yeppers, all at the age of 17. I understood all dem big words, and was planning a life with my baby.
So, in response to all the research I was doing, you want to know what my “social worker” told my parents to do? She told them to tell me that I was not allowed in their house with a baby. Period. And to stick by it.
When that didn’t work on me, she pulled out the big guns. Started telling me about how awful my life and my baby’s life would be. How we would be living in a dump, with “undesirables”, alone in the city, with no one, no help, and why would I want to do that to my baby? On and on she went, spinning the tale deeper and darker, until the moment came that I just broke down in her office, crying. I said, “I guess I’ll have to give my baby up then. I don’t want to give up my baby, but I don’t want her to live like that.”
I will never forget that moment.
And, I will never forget the look of complete triumph on her face when I said that. She won. And I fell for it.
I don’t know if I’ll ever meet my daughter again to tell her everything I know now. I hope I get the chance. So much deciet and coercion, so many lies told to get what they want. That’s my take on social workers.
Sorry for the inturruption, please carry on. Thanks for reading my mini rant.
Jennifer
(((HUGS)) Jennifer! That story sounds almost exactly like mine…27 years ago. Only my parents didn’t need my social worker to tell them not to let me come home with a baby. My parents were a step ahead of her on that one…they already informed me of my lack of a home if I kept my baby. But I heard the same thing…”you are ruining 3 lives” or “why would you subject a baby to a hard life where she will be denied so many of the things you’ve grown up with? what kind of mother is that?” Believe me, we weren’t the only ones who heard those things. It was part of their coercion techniques and they were taught well. They would go after you until you quite literally SURRENDERED. (that’s why I laugh at the term “adoption plan.” nope, it was “I wave the white flag…I SURRENDER”)
If people only truly knew…
Thank you Amy. As I told Claud, I’ve just recently came out of the “adoption fog”, and I’m so angry and hurt at all the people involved in the surrenduring of my daughter, including my parents. No one understands. My sister just commenting on my adoption experience, making a comment along the lines of “opening that wound”…what she doesn’t understand is that wound is always open. It always hurts. Out of nowhere, I’m transported back to that hospital room, saying goodbye again, and the pain is so raw I feel physically sick. Even after being married and having 6 other children, it still can bring me to my knees.
My agency says that the files can’t be opened or a search started until she’s 21. I’ve started some searching on my own, but I don’t even know what to do. I thought I was doing the right thing, but since I’ve started reading about the truth behind adoption, I pray that I didn’t cause pain to my daughter. I just want to know, and talk to her. Why should I be denied that?
Jennifer
Jennifer,
I hope you come back to check this. You shouldn’t be denied talking to your daughter. I also had 6 more kids, and it STILL doesn’t fill the void left by the missing child, does it? I so can relate to that “transported” feeling of going back…I was diagnosed with PTSD.
No one else can understand unless they’ve “been there, done that.” A fellow “birth” mother is the only one who will “get” your feelings. Have you sought out counseling? I have been in and out for a number of years. Was your adoption supposed to be open?
(((GREAT BIG HUGS)))
I’ve honestly never thought of counseling, I always thought it was just something that I had to “deal” with. Besides, the only responses I get when I do talk about it is “You did the best thing” etc etc.
My adoption was through Catholic Social Services and was a semi-open adoption. I know her aparents first names only. I got picures, 2 letters and updates, the last being when she was 9 months old. I supposedly picked out parents that would send yearly pictures and updates, but suprisingly (note sarcasm) that changed after they got her. They refused to send yearly updates. My parents thought that was for the best, so they didn’t fight it. What’s the harm in sending a picture once a year?
I’ve put my info out on the state registry and thru ISSR. Like I mentioned before, the agency won’t open anything until next July when she’s 21, but I have a feeling that will be a problem as well. I just want to meet her, and let her know that I never wanted her to feel abandoned. I loved her so much.
Thanks for your replies, I have no one to talk to about all of this. My husband listens, but of course he doesn’t understand. For anyone that wants to talk or know my story, just let me know. I’ll exchange email addresses.
Thanks again Amy, you don’t know how much I appreciated your words.
Jennifer
Ackk! I just saw this Jennifer! I would love to talk to you. amytoellner@gmail.com
I won’t mention what blog was just bragging about a huge tax return because of two adoptions in the last year. If you can’t afford to adopt then you shouldn’t adopt kids? Should it go both ways?